Base Umpire Warning Pitcher

[Always Wright]

Have you ever, or would you ever, warn the pitcher about throwing at a batter if the plate umpire did not. I have been thinking about a situation in the last game I worked last year. It was a tournament game (15-16 year olds) and we were working 4-man, I was at 3B. I was senior man on the crew with one of our top guys behind the plate.

Here's the situation. Top of 6th inning, home team, clearly superior, winning about 8-1. Losing team has man on 2nd with 2 outs when defense pulls off the old trick play. Pitcher turns, fakes a throw to 2nd, defense reacts as though ball is in CF. Runner goes to 3rd where he is easily tagged out. Manager of offensive team is furious, at least partly out of embarassment. He was coaching 3rd and he got fooled on the play, yelling for his runner to come to 3rd. But also, in my opinion, angry at the other team for pulling that play in such a one-sided game. He thought it was bush and I agree.

Sure enough, bottom of the 6th, a batter from the winning team gets plunked. Nobody seemed to have a problem with that, and I really didn't either - old school baseball. However, since the home team's pitcher threw very hard and most of the batters seemed overmatched, I thought my PU would warn both teams - in effect protecting the losing team. I waited but he did nothing. I knew a warning should have been issued but I felt funny coming in from 3B to issue one - I thought I might be showing up my partner. The home pitcher did throw at a batter in the 7th - fortunately he missed the batter and there were no more fireworks. I thought we were very lucky that nothing further came from this situation. Good umpiring could have and should have prevented the situation and we did not umpire those situations well. We were very lucky that we did not have a brawl. When I talked to my partner after the game, he just brain locked. He totally forgot about the trick play and did not realize how upset the losing team was.
I know I should have gone in to talk to him between innings, perhaps after the trick play, but definitely before the top of the 7th.

I have decided to make this a topic of discussion in my pre-games next year. I'm not sure how I would feel as a PU if my partner on the bases came in to issue a warning in a game I was working. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this matter. What would you do as the base umpire? How would you feel if you were the plate umpire and your partner issued a warning?

Chris Wright
Brooklyn, NY

[MrUmpire]

As BU I would NEVER usurp the PU's responsibility and authority in such an issue. As PU I doubt if I've ever worked with anyone who'd even have such a thought.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

Have you ever, or would you ever, warn the pitcher about throwing at a batter if the plate umpire did not. I have been thinking about a situation in the last game I worked last year. It was a tournament game (15-16 year olds) and we were working 4-man, I was at 3B. I was senior man on the crew with one of our top guys behind the plate.

Here's the situation. Top of 6th inning, home team, clearly superior, winning about 8-1. Losing team has man on 2nd with 2 outs when defense pulls off the old trick play. Pitcher turns, fakes a throw to 2nd, defense reacts as though ball is in CF. Runner goes to 3rd where he is easily tagged out. Manager of offensive team is furious, at least partly out of embarassment. He was coaching 3rd and he got fooled on the play, yelling for his runner to come to 3rd. But also, in my opinion, angry at the other team for pulling that play in such a one-sided game. He thought it was bush and I agree.

Sure enough, bottom of the 6th, a batter from the winning team gets plunked. Nobody seemed to have a problem with that, and I really didn't either - old school baseball. However, since the home team's pitcher threw very hard and most of the batters seemed overmatched, I thought my PU would warn both teams - in effect protecting the losing team. I waited but he did nothing. I knew a warning should have been issued but I felt funny coming in from 3B to issue one - I thought I might be showing up my partner. The home pitcher did throw at a batter in the 7th - fortunately he missed the batter and there were no more fireworks. I thought we were very lucky that nothing further came from this situation. Good umpiring could have and should have prevented the situation and we did not umpire those situations well. We were very lucky that we did not have a brawl. When I talked to my partner after the game, he just brain locked. He totally forgot about the trick play and did not realize how upset the losing team was.
I know I should have gone in to talk to him between innings, perhaps after the trick play, but definitely before the top of the 7th.

I have decided to make this a topic of discussion in my pre-games next year. I'm not sure how I would feel as a PU if my partner on the bases came in to issue a warning in a game I was working. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this matter. What would you do as the base umpire? How would you feel if you were the plate umpire and your partner issued a warning?

Chris Wright
Brooklyn, NY

I will never say never, but I cannot think of an occasion in which BU should warn a pitcher for throwing at a batter instead of PU. It's not so much an issue of jurisdiction in the instant infraction, but more so setting up your partner for failure on any future ones. In your case, there wouldn't have been an issue, as it was a brain fart on PU, but you had no way of knowing that at the time. Let's think about it this way--if a warning had already been given, would you have done the ejection? Of course not, since it's going to beg the question of why PU didn't. Now you've put him in the position of either backing you up on your judgement (and look incompetent) or disagreeing with you (and throwing you under the bus under which you just threw him.) In short, if it's not your job to toss, it's also not your job to warn.

You did the right thing. If there was someway of jarring PU's brain cells loose in a timely manner, I think that would be acceptable, but I can't see a way that would also appear to be visible prompting on your part.

OTOH, I see no problem with BU tossing a battery and/or manager for throwing at PU--often he's going to have a better look at what both of them did in conjunction. In fact, in a men's tournament game this year, I got slammed with an inside fastball that had no chance of being caught nor even touched. Given the way the play played out, I was able to have a quick conference with my partner regarding the pitch with no one the wiser--he stated that it simply appeared to be a cross-up. (Before anyone starts a rant about men's amateur ball, in six seasons of doing it I have found the teams around here, with two exceptions, to be incredibly well-behaved and self-disciplining.)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

I was senior man on the crew with one of our top guys behind the plate.

Given that, I agree with the others that you should not give the warning. Change it to "I was senior man with a first year umpire behind the plate" and I might have a different answer.

I agree that you can go in to talk about it between innings -- just to be sure all umpires are on the same page.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Change it to "I was senior man with a first year umpire behind the plate" and I might have a different answer.

That's what I was thinking. In some circumstances (game about to get out of hand, rookie with that deer in the headlights look) I could even envision interrupting the game to come in and talk to him about issuing a warning.

I wouldn't tell him what to do: I would report what I saw and the likely consequences of not warning. It's up to him to decide based on this information. Even rookies deserve respect.

[Rcichon]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

...clipped....
What would you do as the base umpire?

Ask him in between innings "What He Saw" on that 'trick play'. That is ALL I would have asked him.

Originally Posted by Always Wright

...clipped...How would you feel if you were the plate umpire and your partner issued a warning?

I'd check my uniform for tire tracks. Then visit the Assignor/Scheduler to be sure I don't have any more games with this Fella.

IMHO

[socalblue1]

Had there been a suggestion of retaliation or excess testosterone, I MAY have had a very short conversation with the PU between innings about keeping things in check. Up to him from there.

The COULD change if someone other than the PU was designated as crew chief. Some organizations want the warning to come from the CC regardless of who is PU.

[Emperor Ump]

This would be a tough situation to make the call as a BU. But if you have a game where your partner is clueless and you feel that by not jumping in things could get worse, you should bite the bullet and do it. This is just a no win situation.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Always Wright

Sure enough, bottom of the 6th, a batter from the winning team gets plunked. Nobody seemed to have a problem with that, and I really didn't either - old school baseball. However, since the home team's pitcher threw very hard and most of the batters seemed overmatched, I thought my PU would warn both teams - in effect protecting the losing team.

I agree with the others but what you can do as BU is

get the attention of your partner as the kid is going to first base. In other words hopefully by simple eye contact the PU is now alert to what is going on and "can take care of things"

Also, I know as BU we should head to right field after the inning but this might be a good time to have a little chat with the PU between innings because as you say a "brawl" is just waiting to happen.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

Rich I agree but in a way this could be similar to the following:

R2 BU in "C"

Ground ball to F6. R2 clearly interferes (by clearly interferes I mean a TEXTBOOK interference call) with F6 in his attempt to field a batted ball.

Your partner the BU is "right there" looking at the same thing as you the PU but gives no call.

We all know any umpire can call interference but in general on play's at the bases we defer to our partner's judgement, however, this is a TEXTBOOK interference call.

Aren't you as the PU going to call it?

I think the answer is yes which brings me back to this OP.

Let's assume F1 for the losing team had outstanding control all game long, even though he was on the losing side of the score (there could have been a variety of reasons). When he missed he missed by inches.

Now he Plunks someone. At this point one can assume that the ENTIRE park KNOWS what's going on and yet your partner the PU says NOTHING.

IMO, this crew is now "asking for it" since NO-ONE took control and should a brawl develop IMO the ENTIRE crew now looks bad not just the PU.

Therefore, in what I call a TEXTBOOK Plunk by F1 wouldn't you as BU now say something to avoid what is most likely to transpire next if your partner the PU says nothing.

Pete Booth

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Let's assume F1 for the losing team had outstanding control all game long, even though he was on the losing side of the score (there could have been a variety of reasons). When he missed he missed by inches.

Now he Plunks someone. At this point one can assume that the ENTIRE park KNOWS what's going on and yet your partner the PU says NOTHING.

IMO, this crew is now "asking for it" since NO-ONE took control and should a brawl develop IMO the ENTIRE crew now looks bad not just the PU.

Therefore, in what I call a TEXTBOOK Plunk by F1 wouldn't you as BU now say something to avoid what is most likely to transpire next if your partner the PU says nothing.

So....the guy has "outstanding control" all game, then he hits one batter and you as the BU are issuing a warning? I don't see how this meets the definition of a "TEXTBOOK Plunk", whatever that is.

And how do you mess up the quote every time you quote someone? All you have to do is click the quote link and then type what you want to put below the quote

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Rich I agree but in a way this could be similar to the following:

R2 BU in "C"

Ground ball to F6. R2 clearly interferes (by clearly interferes I mean a TEXTBOOK interference call) with F6 in his attempt to field a batted ball.

Your partner the BU is "right there" looking at the same thing as you the PU but gives no call.

We all know any umpire can call interference but in general on play's at the bases we defer to our partner's judgement, however, this is a TEXTBOOK interference call.

Aren't you as the PU going to call it?

I think the answer is yes which brings me back to this OP.

Not me, Pete. I'm not going to eat my partners lunch here. Unless I'm working with a brand spanking new umpire, no way I make this call as a PU. Perhaps his definition of "textbook interference" and mine are different.


Tim.

[bossman72]

In regards to the OP- to quote Tim C in his valuable article "10 things a Base/Plate umpire should not do"...

"As the PU you OWN the pitcher and the catcher."

[Umpmazza]

In the op... I as the BU am not gonna saying anything to my partner. Now maybe between inning I might go and talk to him and tell him to umpire the game as well. and to be aware of situations like this.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Originally Posted by Umpmazza

In the op... I as the BU am not gonna saying anything to my partner. Now maybe between inning I might go and talk to him and tell him to umpire the game as well. and to be aware of situations like this.

Agreed. This is an experience thing.
Need to see this and to be aware.

I think the level of ball(15-16) is on the cusp...meaning, most of these guys playing aren't aware to "go after" a batter ..unless you have a knowledgable coach.

To the OP, you can cover this in a pre-game, but it won't come across the same unless it actually happens...