FED change -shaking off the sign

[justanotherblue]

SDS, I think you about covered it. It was mentioned on here a while back about a illegal pitch/balk rule, (pitcher not stoping when in the set). It was felt because it was a rule it had to have a penalty regardless of runners on or not. Just another example of FED intervention gone wild. And no I don't call it either.

[umpjim]

MRumpire, this caseplay has existed for years. The change was to make (a) and (b) legal. I don't think anybody will not call these things ( a and b) a balk after the pitcher comes set. What further clarification would you need that did not exist in years previous.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Yeah, I don't want anybody to get me wrong, because I did umpire HS ball for about 19 years, and that is where my bread and butter came from. I'm very grateful to have worked HS baseball here in the San Diego area, and got to see a lot of talent come through. I enforced the silly FED rules, but that doesn't mean I had to like them. I took that FED exam every year, and got 100% nearly every year, missing 2 questions twice and 1 question another year. But I was at my happiest working PONY or Colt or Legion or Palomino or adult ball (when it was good, that is) or anything with OBR rules. I just felt more comfortable with them.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by umpjim

MRumpire, this caseplay has existed for years. The change was to make (a) and (b) legal. I don't think anybody will not call these things ( a and b) a balk after the pitcher comes set. What further clarification would you need that did not exist in years previous.

The wordiing, "from the set position" has caused issues for years as well. Many construe that to mean after "coming set". If you have never run into one of those, feel blessed.

[ODJ]

After the pitcher has come set, moving his hand from its position (glove or side) without possession of the ball -and not moving it to grasp the ball- would be a balk.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by ODJ

After the pitcher has come set, moving his hand from its position (glove or side) without possession of the ball -and not moving it to grasp the ball- would be a balk.

I believe most umpires and some coaches would concur.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I have to disagree. If it is such a different game, then tell me why Colt and Palamino leagues are so successful, while using the same group of ball players from the local JV and Varsity squads. Why do travel and wood bat leagues for 16U through 18 level thrive using the same talent pool as the high schools use? There are many examples of OBR-based games around this area, and they feature the very same guys you see when you do high school ball.

I see no reason for 95% of FED rules at all. They manage to confuse people, for example the folks that wonder why in the world the umpire just killed the ball on that balk the batter knocked out the ballpark, as well as other screwy rules.

Steve first of all there are at least 200-230 errors contained in the OBR rule-book so to say that OBR rules are the "greatest' is a crock. Just look at all the discussions we have on OBR rules.

In addition in OBR you have the MLBUM the PBUC, Evans , JR etc. and in some instances these authorities disagree on certain rule interps.

So to say that OBR is "the real deal" IMO is simply not true.

Also, OBR rules were written for Professional athletes not AMATEURS.

Also, at least from my experience many youth leagues are now gearing more and more towards FED rules than OBR. Many have adopted the FPSR , Bat Restriction policy, no malicious contact rule etc. It's simply a matter of time before these leagues simply change to FED rules altogether because as you say many of these kids also play HS as well.

Also, you didn't even mention College which has another different set of rule interps altogether. Remember the discussion on OBS / Interference this past year where we all saw a clip of a play and had a variety of reasons for ruling the way we would and then the NCAA came up with their interp of the play.

As for your Balk reference yeah it sucks if someone should hit the ball out of the park when a balk is called but in reality how many times have you seen this happen. Also, at one time even in OBR a balk was an immediate dead ball. Look at what happens in an OBR game if there is "action" following a balk - confusion exists - FED cleaned it up.

Also, as far as the dead ball appeal - it makes sense. How many times in your career have to had to explain to the teams involved how to conduct a proper appeal. In FED no time wasted - the coach simply says "Blue I want to appeal number 23 missing third base" end of story no time delay.

Also, you didn't even mention IMO what's the REAL problem with the many leagues one services - HOUSE RULES. There are some leagues that you can both start with or end with 8 players / Special Pinch runner type rules etc.

In Summary, since many of the kids play travel ball it makes more sense to adopt FED rules than anything else as NO Amateur League that I know of plays by PURE OBR rules.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by kylejt

A. Were there really FED umpires calling balks on this? (Apparently so). That's awful, guys.

Kyle since you umpire LL the aforementioned is akin to telling a coach he cannot warm-up his F1 or calling a kid out (in the younger divisions) for sliding head first which he can do when he goes to JR.'s.

If you go onto a LL Umpires discussion Forum (ala eteamz) and say that you do not care if a coach warms up F1 one is chastized yet you are willing to call FED umpires awful for enforcing a case book rule interp.

If our respective associations want us to call it - guess what you call it if you want work


Pete Booth

[SanDiegoSteve]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;544113]

Kyle since you umpire LL the aforementioned is akin to telling a coach he cannot warm-up his F1 or calling a kid out (in the younger divisions) for sliding head first which he can do when he goes to JR.'s.

If you go onto a LL Umpires discussion Forum (ala eteamz) and say that you do not care if a coach warms up F1 one is chastized yet you are willing to call FED umpires awful for enforcing a case book rule interp.

If our respective associations want us to call it - guess what you call it if you want work


Pete Booth

Kyle works Little League??????????? Since when?

I was under the impression that he works a lot of college ball.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Steve first of all there are at least 200-230 errors contained in the OBR rule-book so to say that OBR rules are the "greatest' is a crock. Just look at all the discussions we have on OBR rules.

OBR rules rule, errors and all because...

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

In addition in OBR you have the MLBUM the PBUC, Evans , JR etc. and in some instances these authorities disagree on certain rule interps.

That's why we have these manuals. So, some authorities disagree on fine points. FED rules are equally ambiguous and at times contradictory.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

So to say that OBR is "the real deal" IMO is simply not true.

Real enough for me growing up. Real enough for all the youth baseball I've ever worked outside of HS. FED rules are artificial and often do not resemble baseball at all.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Also, OBR rules were written for Professional athletes not AMATEURS.

Then why have nearly all amateur leagues adopted these rules since the beginning of time? I never played FED rules.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Also, at least from my experience many youth leagues are now gearing more and more towards FED rules than OBR. Many have adopted the FPSR , Bat Restriction policy, no malicious contact rule etc. It's simply a matter of time before these leagues simply change to FED rules altogether because as you say many of these kids also play HS as well.

That's great. Adopt safety rules. I have no problem with that. Just leave the playing rules themselves alone.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Also, you didn't even mention College which has another different set of rule interps altogether. Remember the discussion on OBS / Interference this past year where we all saw a clip of a play and had a variety of reasons for ruling the way we would and then the NCAA came up with their interp of the play.

I did not mention college for two reasons:

1) Many HS baseball players will not play college ball.

2) College ball was not part of the discussion.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

As for your Balk reference yeah it sucks if someone should hit the ball out of the park when a balk is called but in reality how many times have you seen this happen. Also, at one time even in OBR a balk was an immediate dead ball. Look at what happens in an OBR game if there is "action" following a balk - confusion exists - FED cleaned it up.

Twice. Two too many times I saw a HR taken away because of a balk call.

And yes, we can keep dragging out that tired, old cliche of how OBR used to do it this way, but OBR changed the rule for the better in 1956, the year I was born. So, for my entire life the rule has been the way it is. The only confusion is with the players, not the umpires. I've never had problems ruling on a balk in OBR. FED didn't clean it up, they took it back to the dead ball era .

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Also, as far as the dead ball appeal - it makes sense. How many times in your career have to had to explain to the teams involved how to conduct a proper appeal. In FED no time wasted - the coach simply says "Blue I want to appeal number 23 missing third base" end of story no time delay.

The dead ball appeal is another example of laziness. Just like the automatic intentional walk. We coddle players, while at the same time, deny the opposing team the chance that a mistake will be made in their favor. And I don't explain to the teams how to make an appeal. Coaches and players need to learn how to properly make an appeal. They shouldn't rely on the umpires to bail them out.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Also, you didn't even mention IMO what's the REAL problem with the many leagues one services - HOUSE RULES. There are some leagues that you can both start with or end with 8 players / Special Pinch runner type rules etc.

House rules make OBR flexible and adaptable to the needs of a particular league. What's the problem with that? Many leagues need these special rules to make sure everyone participates. I think house rules are just fine, as long as they are made known to the umpires and teams involved.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

In Summary, since many of the kids play travel ball it makes more sense to adopt FED rules than anything else as NO Amateur League that I know of plays by PURE OBR rules.

I have umpired many leagues that play straight NL rules or straight AL rules (DH for pitcher). And I still don't see why 95% of all baseball leagues should change to a rule set used primarily only for high school. FED rules are written because there are so many incompetent officials working HS games, so they have been "dumbed down" to the lowest common denominator.

What's good about that?

[Publius]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

FED rules are written because there are so many incompetent officials working HS games, so they have been "dumbed down" to the lowest common denominator.

What's good about that?

It ensures an adequate supply of qualified FED umpires?

[umpjim]

MrUmpire, my apologies, based on ODJ's post I now see what you mean. ODJ, I'm confused. If the pitcher has come set he wouldn't have his his hand at his side. If your saying the pitcher is in the preliminary stage of pitching from the set position then he would have his hand at his side and FED now says that a glove motion or hat adjustment need not be balked. From what I've seen on MLB and attending minor league games, a lot of preliminary twitches, shoulder rolls, and sleeve clearing are definitely ignored. BTW anybody take note in ALCS game seven last night of one pitcher's nice big turn and look at 1B while coming set?