FED change -shaking off the sign

[umpjim]

Just got my 2009 NFHS Baseball Case book. 6.1.2.D has changed:

"F1, while on the pitcher's plate in either the windup or set position, (a) adjusts his cap or (b) shakes off the signal with his glove, or (c) shakes off the signal with his head. RULING: In (a) through (c), these are legal actions if these movements of the arms and legs are not associated with the pitch."

My only caveat would be that there are some other arm and or leg movements not associated with the pitch that could be illegal feints.

[kylejt]

A. Were there really FED umpires calling balks on this? (Apparently so). That's awful, guys.

B. Why are there FED rules? I mean, high school kids may need a shock collar now and then, but not a whole different set of baseball rules. How did this originate?

[David B]

Originally Posted by kylejt

A. Were there really FED umpires calling balks on this? (Apparently so). That's awful, guys.

B. Why are there FED rules? I mean, high school kids may need a shock collar now and then, but not a whole different set of baseball rules. How did this originate?

Probably a good clarification so that some of the guys won't be calling this type of action a balk.

I don't know of anyone who has called this a balk for a while, but it was in the books.

Thanks
DAvid

[JJ]

There are FED rules because it IS a different game. Their athletes are not all baseball players, and all their baseball players are not athletes. They are still growing, physically and emotionally. They do not handle failure and success in the same way older, more mature players do.

High School parents and administrations are worried about injury as well as litigation, yet still want students to have the opportunity to participate.

Fields, equipment, coaches, and trainers are not of the same caliber as higher levels of ball.

Some baseball rules need more clarification, refinement, and explanation at the FED level - for players, coaches, fans, AND umpires.

I'd love to have one set of rules for EVERY level of ball, but it will never happen, and should never happen.

JJ

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by JJ

There are FED rules because it IS a different game. Their athletes are not all baseball players, and all their baseball players are not athletes. They are still growing, physically and emotionally. They do not handle failure and success in the same way older, more mature players do.

High School parents and administrations are worried about injury as well as litigation, yet still want students to have the opportunity to participate.

Fields, equipment, coaches, and trainers are not of the same caliber as higher levels of ball.

Some baseball rules need more clarification, refinement, and explanation at the FED level - for players, coaches, fans, AND umpires.

I'd love to have one set of rules for EVERY level of ball, but it will never happen, and should never happen.

JJ

It has always bugged me that PONY and other youth leagues don't base their rules on a variation of FED rules rather than a variation of OBR.

High school is the highest level of ball that most of these guys will ever play and they have to learn them for the first time when they get there. It's BS. Most of them never really learn them.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

It has always bugged me that PONY and other youth leagues don't base their rules on a variation of FED rules rather than a variation of OBR.

High school is the highest level of ball that most of these guys will ever play and they have to learn them for the first time when they get there. It's BS. Most of them never really learn them.

It has always bugged me that the FED and high schools insist on playing by a different set of rules than 95% of all youth baseball leagues in America. The arrogance of the FED is just astounding to me. What's wrong with just adapting safety rules into FED rules, and not forcing these players, all of whom grew up playing by OBR, to learn an entirely new set of rules just to make it through a few years of HS ball?

You're right, it's BS! You're also right, most of the kids never completely learn the FED rules (neither do most umpires, as evidenced by all the confusion discussed on this forum over the simplest of rules). That is why they shouldn't have to in the first place.

Oh, and then they have to forget all about FED rules if they advance past HS. Wow, it's like deprogramming a former cult member!

Defenders of the FED faithful, blast away!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JJ

There are FED rules because it IS a different game. Their athletes are not all baseball players, and all their baseball players are not athletes. They are still growing, physically and emotionally. They do not handle failure and success in the same way older, more mature players do.

High School parents and administrations are worried about injury as well as litigation, yet still want students to have the opportunity to participate.

Fields, equipment, coaches, and trainers are not of the same caliber as higher levels of ball.

Some baseball rules need more clarification, refinement, and explanation at the FED level - for players, coaches, fans, AND umpires.

I'd love to have one set of rules for EVERY level of ball, but it will never happen, and should never happen.

JJ

I have to disagree. If it is such a different game, then tell me why Colt and Palamino leagues are so successful, while using the same group of ball players from the local JV and Varsity squads. Why do travel and wood bat leagues for 16U through 18 level thrive using the same talent pool as the high schools use? There are many examples of OBR-based games around this area, and they feature the very same guys you see when you do high school ball.

I see no reason for 95% of FED rules at all. They manage to confuse people, for example the folks that wonder why in the world the umpire just killed the ball on that balk the batter knocked out the ballpark, as well as other screwy rules. The only rules the FEDs should concern themselves with are safety issues, but leave the playing rules intact. Have your little sissy FPSR and malicious contact rules, and anything affecting safety, but otherwise leave the game as it was meant to be played, and that is by the Official Baseball Rules. These rules are easily adaptable for safety by installing special rules, so I don't see the need for any further confusion. I've had many players question why a FED rule contradicted the rules they were used to playing by. I could only tell them that whoever made these rules was responsible for the confusion, and that they needed to learn and know both rule sets.

One set of rules for every level of baseball, with a few special rules for each level. That probably will never happen. But it should.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I see no reason for 95% of FED rules at all. They manage to confuse people, for example the folks that wonder why in the world the umpire just killed the ball on that balk the batter knocked out the ballpark, as well as other screwy rules. The only rules the FEDs should concern themselves with are safety issues, but leave the playing rules intact. Have your little sissy FPSR and malicious contact rules, and anything affecting safety, but otherwise leave the game as it was meant to be played, and that is by the Official Baseball Rules. These rules are easily adaptable for safety by installing special rules, so I don't see the need for any further confusion. I've had many players question why a FED rule contradicted the rules they were used to playing by. I could only tell them that whoever made these rules was responsible for the confusion, and that they needed to learn and know both rule sets.

One set of rules for every level of baseball, with a few special rules for each level. That probably will never happen. But it should.

Well done, Steve. I would love to see this as well. Of course, we both know that Fed wants to write its own rules because they want to have it their own special way. And really, there is nothing stopping a state from adopting a modified form of OBR.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I have to disagree. If it is such a different game, then tell me why Colt and Palamino leagues are so successful, while using the same group of ball players from the local JV and Varsity squads. Why do travel and wood bat leagues for 16U through 18 level thrive using the same talent pool as the high schools use? There are many examples of OBR-based games around this area, and they feature the very same guys you see when you do high school ball.

I see no reason for 95% of FED rules at all. They manage to confuse people, for example the folks that wonder why in the world the umpire just killed the ball on that balk the batter knocked out the ballpark, as well as other screwy rules.

Steve first of all there are at least 200-230 errors contained in the OBR rule-book so to say that OBR rules are the "greatest' is a crock. Just look at all the discussions we have on OBR rules.

In addition in OBR you have the MLBUM the PBUC, Evans , JR etc. and in some instances these authorities disagree on certain rule interps.

So to say that OBR is "the real deal" IMO is simply not true.

Also, OBR rules were written for Professional athletes not AMATEURS.

Also, at least from my experience many youth leagues are now gearing more and more towards FED rules than OBR. Many have adopted the FPSR , Bat Restriction policy, no malicious contact rule etc. It's simply a matter of time before these leagues simply change to FED rules altogether because as you say many of these kids also play HS as well.

Also, you didn't even mention College which has another different set of rule interps altogether. Remember the discussion on OBS / Interference this past year where we all saw a clip of a play and had a variety of reasons for ruling the way we would and then the NCAA came up with their interp of the play.

As for your Balk reference yeah it sucks if someone should hit the ball out of the park when a balk is called but in reality how many times have you seen this happen. Also, at one time even in OBR a balk was an immediate dead ball. Look at what happens in an OBR game if there is "action" following a balk - confusion exists - FED cleaned it up.

Also, as far as the dead ball appeal - it makes sense. How many times in your career have to had to explain to the teams involved how to conduct a proper appeal. In FED no time wasted - the coach simply says "Blue I want to appeal number 23 missing third base" end of story no time delay.

Also, you didn't even mention IMO what's the REAL problem with the many leagues one services - HOUSE RULES. There are some leagues that you can both start with or end with 8 players / Special Pinch runner type rules etc.

In Summary, since many of the kids play travel ball it makes more sense to adopt FED rules than anything else as NO Amateur League that I know of plays by PURE OBR rules.

Pete Booth

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by kylejt

A. Were there really FED umpires calling balks on this? (Apparently so). That's awful, guys.

Kyle,

At our State umpire camp, guys were dinged on their evaluation for not calling the first two, as well as the gorilla arm. It was stressed by the instructors that they expected it to be called in the camp, as well as in the coming season. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just sayin'......

[umpjim]

David B., it's more of a reversal than a clarification. The same 2008 number in the casebook had (a) and (b) as a balk. I guess nobody told Umpduck's instructors of the reversal.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by umpjim

David B., it's more of a reversal than a clarification. The same 2008 number in the casebook had (a) and (b) as a balk. I guess nobody told Umpduck's instructors of the reversal.

Our camp was in June. Was the change published before then ? Perhaps that's why we were instructed as we were.

[umpjim]

I just got the casebook this week. I think it was just printed. When it was decided to change the wording I don't know. I just scanned it for the changed or added plays while I was, ugh, never mind.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by kylejt

A. Were there really FED umpires calling balks on this? (Apparently so). That's awful, guys.

Kyle since you umpire LL the aforementioned is akin to telling a coach he cannot warm-up his F1 or calling a kid out (in the younger divisions) for sliding head first which he can do when he goes to JR.'s.

If you go onto a LL Umpires discussion Forum (ala eteamz) and say that you do not care if a coach warms up F1 one is chastized yet you are willing to call FED umpires awful for enforcing a case book rule interp.

If our respective associations want us to call it - guess what you call it if you want work


Pete Booth

[SanDiegoSteve]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;544113]

Kyle since you umpire LL the aforementioned is akin to telling a coach he cannot warm-up his F1 or calling a kid out (in the younger divisions) for sliding head first which he can do when he goes to JR.'s.

If you go onto a LL Umpires discussion Forum (ala eteamz) and say that you do not care if a coach warms up F1 one is chastized yet you are willing to call FED umpires awful for enforcing a case book rule interp.

If our respective associations want us to call it - guess what you call it if you want work


Pete Booth

Kyle works Little League??????????? Since when?

I was under the impression that he works a lot of college ball.