Should I Stay or Should I go.

[UmpireBob]

Tim,

I can understand your frustration, but I think you did the right thing by sticking around. After all, it does not sound like it was the kids' fault that the field didn't get prepped. I would think that your "stock" went up in the minds of a few people, hopefully.

If no one else said it to you, I will: Thanks for sticking around so that the games could get played.

Bob

[Rich Ives]

Uh Tim
I just laughed and reminded him that it was his field, not mine, and that we're not responsible for that.

You aren't responsible for the game time or the decision to start/cancel the game either. Why would you even think it would be OK to just walk away?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Uh Tim
I just laughed and reminded him that it was his field, not mine, and that we're not responsible for that.

You aren't responsible for the game time or the decision to start/cancel the game either. Why would you even think it would be OK to just walk away?

Because I'm not contracted to sit there for an undetermined period waiting until they decide whether they're going to play or not. I'm contracted to start at a particular time. If I'm called at home and told that the game is going to start an hour later, I then can accept or decline the game as the terms of my contract have changed. And when I assigned, I told the umpires that they were free to do the same thing.

Technically, the home team controls whether a game starts, however once the lineup cards are exchanged *I* control that, so in fact the umpires are pretty much in control from the start. When a team shows up 30 minutes before a game is scheduled to start instead of arriving earlier (and I'm not talking about the OP's situation, but one where the home team actually controls and maintains the field) and then tells me it's going to take an extra hour to get the field ready, I won't hesitate to decline to stay if I have after-game plans. They are always free to hire another independent contractor to come out and work.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Uh Tim
I just laughed and reminded him that it was his field, not mine, and that we're not responsible for that.

You aren't responsible for the game time or the decision to start/cancel the game either. Why would you even think it would be OK to just walk away?

Give me the lineup cards, coaches. Thank you. Game canceled due to field conditions. Oh, BTW, you now owe me a full game fee.

Please tell me how I cannot, by rule, do exactly what I just described in the last paragraph. Thank you.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Give me the lineup cards, coaches. Thank you. Game canceled due to field conditions. Oh, BTW, you now owe me a full game fee.

Please tell me how I cannot, by rule, do exactly what I just described in the last paragraph. Thank you.

Because you can't order the coaches to give you the lineups until the plate meeting.

As to the rule (What constitutes "previous notice" may or may not be part of your contract - if you have one - with the league.):

4.01
Unless the home club shall have given previous notice that the game has been postponed or will be delayed in starting, the umpire, or umpires, shall enter the playing field five minutes before the hour set for the game to begin and proceed directly to home base where they shall be met by the managers of the opposing teams. In sequence --

(a) First, the home manager shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

(b) Next, the visiting manager shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.



Given that the "ground crew" at most parks has real jobs they don't get to the field much before you do to assess the conditions and get to work fixing as required, your expectation that things be pristine at game time after a day of rain are out of place - and quite naive.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Given that the "ground crew" at most parks has real jobs they don't get to the field much before you do to assess the conditions and get to work fixing as required, your expectation that things be pristine at game time after a day of rain are out of place - and quite naive.

This particular league has full time crew of college and high school kids working as the grounds crew. They run games on 10 diamonds seven days a week. This wasn't some podunk league with no grounds crew. They screwed the pooch and left the mound and plate area uncovered. Not my problem.......









Tim.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Because you can't order the coaches to give you the lineups until the plate meeting.

As to the rule (What constitutes "previous notice" may or may not be part of your contract - if you have one - with the league.):

4.01
Unless the home club shall have given previous notice that the game has been postponed or will be delayed in starting, the umpire, or umpires, shall enter the playing field five minutes before the hour set for the game to begin and proceed directly to home base where they shall be met by the managers of the opposing teams. In sequence --

(a) First, the home manager shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

(b) Next, the visiting manager shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.



Given that the "ground crew" at most parks has real jobs they don't get to the field much before you do to assess the conditions and get to work fixing as required, your expectation that things be pristine at game time after a day of rain are out of place - and quite naive.

Naive? Maybe in your mind. I'm there to work. If the field isn't ready at gametime, then my contract terms have changed.

Likewise, I've arrived on the field five minutes before gametime to hear that a team hasn't taken batting practice yet. Well, too bad. Game time is 6PM, we start at 6PM, not 6:20PM.

For you and anyone else that thinks I should be flexible, how about I start showing up at 6:20PM for a 6PM start and see how long that's tolerated.

And I would've left even if it was a LL game. Being a volunteer doesn't mean I am going to stand around and wait for a field to get prepped.

[lawump]

I'll give two relatively recent examples:

#1) 3 years ago I showed up at an SEC school for a 12:30 Saturday game. It was pooring. The head coach did not want to cancel (or schedule a doubleheader for Sunday). Every other Division 1 game in a four state area was canceled. We started at approx. 6:30 when the system finally moved out.

The outfield was a lake, but the infield was covered. I was on the plate, but I was not the senior umpire. Rather, I had a long time SEC conference umpire (several World Series, too) as a crew chief. He didn't even think of arguing with the head coach. It was the head coach's call.

#2) Two weeks ago I had an American Legion game scheduled for 7 p.m. on a Friday night. At 6:45 it started lightning. It never rained hard...just on-and-off drizzle, but it never stopped lightning until the home team's legion athletic officer banged it at 8:45. I did not argue with him at all about waiting. It appeared on radar that there was going to be a chance to get it in...but the thunderstorm cell just never moved.

Now with that said, when I was a MiLB umpire I once told a GM: "It's you're call until we get the line-up cards, but let me say this, 'once I get the cards, I'm banging the game because there is no way we're playing on that field.' Now, you go and make any decision you want."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by lawump

I'll give two relatively recent examples:

#1) 3 years ago I showed up at an SEC school for a 12:30 Saturday game. It was pooring. The head coach did not want to cancel (or schedule a doubleheader for Sunday). Every other Division 1 game in a four state area was canceled. We started at approx. 6:30 when the system finally moved out.

The outfield was a lake, but the infield was covered. I was on the plate, but I was not the senior umpire. Rather, I had a long time SEC conference umpire (several World Series, too) as a crew chief. He didn't even think of arguing with the head coach. It was the head coach's call.

#2) Two weeks ago I had an American Legion game scheduled for 7 p.m. on a Friday night. At 6:45 it started lightning. It never rained hard...just on-and-off drizzle, but it never stopped lightning until the home team's legion athletic officer banged it at 8:45. I did not argue with him at all about waiting. It appeared on radar that there was going to be a chance to get it in...but the thunderstorm cell just never moved.

Now with that said, when I was a MiLB umpire I once told a GM: "It's you're call until we get the line-up cards, but let me say this, 'once I get the cards, I'm banging the game because there is no way we're playing on that field.' Now, you go and make any decision you want."

When I work Division I baseball for DI money, I'll wait. In the Legion example, it would depend on what I had going on and when. If it was a 1PM game and I had 7PM concert tickets, I wouldn't wait to start the game until 5PM.

[kcg NC2Ablu]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Give me the lineup cards, coaches. Thank you. Game canceled due to field conditions. Oh, BTW, you now owe me a full game fee.

Please tell me how I cannot, by rule, do exactly what I just described in the last paragraph. Thank you.

The coaches dont have to give you the lineup cards until they feel the field of play is ready.... especially if they show up and are expecting a grounds crew... and if they arent going to play you should get AT LEAST travel if not a whole fee for just being there. And you arent contracted to start at a particular time ... what if your working a tournement and you have a rain delay are you going to walk away from a game? if you show up late should someone not pay you even if its out of your control?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kcg NC2Ablu

The coaches dont have to give you the lineup cards until they feel the field of play is ready.... especially if they show up and are expecting a grounds crew... and if they arent going to play you should get AT LEAST travel if not a whole fee for just being there. And you arent contracted to start at a particular time ... what if your working a tournement and you have a rain delay are you going to walk away from a game? if you show up late should someone not pay you even if its out of your control?

And I don't have to stay if they aren't ready to give the lineup cards. Trust me. I work for myself in the summer and would never be put in this situation during HS ball because most fields don't have lights. In my college games, I'd stick around, but only because I drive a good way to work those games. If called early with a late start, I would decline if I felt it necessary, even at the college level. I did just that this year when they tried to move a noon start to 4PM (with a 9-inning DH).

One thing about not having a central assignor is that the power shifts a bit to the individual umpire. Sure, they can decide not to hire me again, but at most I could lose one team/school, etc.

If I show up late I don't expect a full fee. I was involved in an accident a few years ago and didn't show up until the 4th inning. I worked for free and told the home team to give the other umpire what they felt was fair for having to go solo. They gave him my check after I declined it about 3 times and he bought me dinner. Fair trade, really.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Uh Tim
I just laughed and reminded him that it was his field, not mine, and that we're not responsible for that.

You aren't responsible for the game time or the decision to start/cancel the game either. Why would you even think it would be OK to just walk away?

Because I belong to an association that contracts with this league. We expect that when we send a set of umpires to work games, the games will start on time and end at a reasonable hour. I stayed only because of the agreement to receive the additional fee. Had I decided to leave I would have been payed for the first game of the set anyway. The problems a league has with it's field crew aren't ours, Rich. The game that was supposed to start at 5:30 took until 9:00 to finish, and the second game didn't get finished until 11:15.


Tim.

[LakeErieUmp]

Might have finished earlier if there were lights on the field, 'eh?

[PeteBooth]

Rich now you have your LL hat on. That's the LL mentality not how an umpire business works. (excluding the BIG BOYS which is a horse of a different color)


There is also another very good reason to simply LEAVE. In my area it's not uncommon that I have games scheduled at different fields. We allow for 3 hours a game

Example: I might have a double header scheduled for 10 am / 1 PM and then that night have another game at a different location scheduled for say 7 - 7:30PM. It's one thing if we are delayed 1/2 hour but not 1.5 - 2 hours as in the OP.

Therefore, using Tim's example I would have taken my game FEE which I am entitled to and moved on because I have other games on my schedule.

Umpiring is "not for the kids" It is a BUSINESS just like any other and it is run like a business. If you schedule a plumber to be at your house at 10 AM and when he gets there you tell him you will have to wait 1.5/ 2 hours before you can begin your work, unless the plumber is a friend of yours the clock starts "ticking" at 10 AM and you will be billed accordingly.

If the teams agreed to pay another game FEE as in the OP then assuming I had no other committments I would stay and do the games.

Bottom Line if I have a game scheduled for 5 PM I am required to be there at a minimum of 1/2 hour before time. We are NOT responsible if a coach does not have enough players or the field is unplayable.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by UmpireBob

Tim,

After all, it does not sound like it was the kids' fault that the field didn't get prepped.

With all due respect Umpire Bob umpiring is NOT for the kids. It is a BUSINESS, otherwise leagues will "walk all over you"

I am NOT there for the kids. I am there to make certain no one team gains an unfair advantage over another not intended by the rules. Leagues use our service because we show up ON Time each and every game and these leagues do not have the headaches that LL has in scheduling umpires.

It's simple if you are having a lot of rain and ALL fields cannot be worked on then simply cancel the game AHEAD of time. Why waste everyones time or Call the assignor and tell him that the game is running late so that the assignor has enough time to contact the umpires and tell them they do not need to show up at 5 but say 6 / 6:30

If you continue to Wait people will start to expect it and take advantage.

Pete Booth