Umpire INT, Rule Clarification?

[chuckfan1]

Had this recently, and Im sure I got it right, but in looking in the college book, the penalty doesnt seem to be completely laid out. At least what Im reading.
Sitch.. Catcher, after receiving pitch, comes up throwing , trying to pick off R1. F2 , in his throwing motion, makes contact with me, on my chest protector. Throws goes into right field. R1 makes it to third.
I come out.."Time, we got umpire INT, runner, back to first".
Looking in my College book, I find the rule, but it doesnt seem to go far enough. Rule 6-3a mentions the PU interfering with the "catcher's attempt to throw anywhere".. and runners return. I dont see anything about "if the throw retires the runner". Its mentioned on Batters INT, but not Umpires INT....am I missing something in there?

It was a "relaxed" summer league, Connie Mack game, and Paul Abbott, coaching 3rd, ex major leaguer, comes down...
We have a short talk..he gives the old standby.."I played in the bigs for a long time, and I never saw that."..
I told him what happened, the throw didnt retire the runner, runner goes back. Paul asked about "arnt umpires part of the field"..etc..
I even mentioned how it just recently happened in the Majors, though I couldnt recall the particulars.
And Paul says.."so you mean the major league umpire just said.."my bad".."
We both laughed a little, and I said.."well, maybe not those exact words, but yeah, probably pretty close to that".
Paul is an asst at a local JC here, and the head coach was in the dugout. A pitch goes by to the next batter, then he comes out. Wanting to question the play, get help etc. Was said in a calm manner, but I told him, weve moved on, its too late at this point, and see me between innings, and Ill answer any questions.
Of course he didnt. Im sure if it was a regular season game, wouldve been different.
But does anyone have anything? Shouldnt the book clarify that?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by chuckfan1

Had this recently, and Im sure I got it right, but in looking in the college book, the penalty doesnt seem to be completely laid out. At least what Im reading.
Sitch.. Catcher, after receiving pitch, comes up throwing , trying to pick off R1. F2 , in his throwing motion, makes contact with me, on my chest protector. Throws goes into right field. R1 makes it to third.
I come out.."Time, we got umpire INT, runner, back to first".
Looking in my College book, I find the rule, but it doesnt seem to go far enough. Rule 6-3a mentions the PU interfering with the "catcher's attempt to throw anywhere".. and runners return. I dont see anything about "if the throw retires the runner". Its mentioned on Batters INT, but not Umpires INT....am I missing something in there?

The ball is immediately dead on the interference and runners return. The catcher's throw is irrelevant, since the ball is dead.
The heading (Delayed Dead Ball - Runners Return or Advance) is misleading. The rule should be in Section 2.

[socalblue1]

Why? If F2 throws the runner out then there would be no interference, thus nothing to call.

[Dave Reed]

Dash,
The BRD and J/R both think the NCAA rule is basically the same as OBR. If the runner is thrown out, he's out. Otherwise he returns.

There is no question that the NCAA rule lacks clarity.

[dash_riprock]

I certainly agree that it would make sense to let the play stand if F2 throws the runner out. However, I didn't think the rule was unclear - "The ball becomes dead and base runners return when the plate umpire interferes with the catcher's attempt to throw anywhere." No ambiguity there.

I'm in the middle of a 3-man camp run by Nick Zibelli and a bunch of D-1 NCAA guys. I'll ask them later today and report back here.

[ozzy6900]

OBR 5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—

(b) The plate umpire interferes with the catcher’s throw; runners may not advance.
NOTE: The interference shall be disregarded if the catcher’s throw retires the runner.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

FED 5-1-2c
ART. 2 ... It is a delayed dead ball when:
c. umpire interferes with the catcher who is attempting to throw

FED Casebook
5.1.2 SITUATION C: With R1 on third, R2 on first and no outs, R2 attempts to steal second. F2 is obstructed on his throw to second base by the plate umpire.The throw is cut off by the shortstop and relayed back to the plate in time to retire R1 trying to score.

RULING: If an out was not made at the end of F2's throw, the umpire shall call the ball dead immediately. Both runners shall return to the bases occupied at the time of the interference.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

NCAA Rule 6

Delayed Dead Ball—Runners Return or Advance
SECTION 3. The ball becomes dead and base runners return when:

a. The plate umpire interferes with the catcher’s attempt to throw
anywhere

---------------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, the NCAA penalty is in reference to the batter interfering with the catcher and there is no reference to the umpire interfering in the penalty. I would assume that NCAA will agree with OBR & FED that if the catcher's throw retires the runner, the interference will be ignored.

[dash_riprock]

Like I said, that would make perfect sense, but the rule says perfectly otherwise.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Like I said, that would make perfect sense, but the rule says perfectly otherwise.

Yes, it is contradictory being under the "Delayed Dead Ball" section and then saying "The ball becomes dead......". I only posted it with the other ones so those without access could view all three. Please let us know what Nick and the others say. Thanks Dash.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I am a bit confused. Connie Mack, like Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial, and Sandy Koufax leagues, is based on OBR rules, with HS and NCAA safety rules added (and local rules). But otherwise it's OBR. Why is this league different from the general AABC rules?

[umpjong]

As some one said earlier, if the throw retires the runner, then no interference occured. There can be contact without interference. Therefore the delayed dead ball would apply.

[SanDiegoSteve]

If you are playing Connie Mack baseball, this is the rule that applies:

OBR 5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—

(b) The plate umpire interferes with the catcher’s throw; runners may not advance.
NOTE: The interference shall be disregarded if the catcher’s throw retires the runner.

Why an NCAA book, with all its cockamamy rules, was consulted is a mystery to me. All AABC games use OBR for their main rules base.

[chuckfan1]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

If you are playing Connie Mack baseball, this is the rule that applies:

OBR 5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—

(b) The plate umpire interferes with the catcher’s throw; runners may not advance.
NOTE: The interference shall be disregarded if the catcher’s throw retires the runner.

Why an NCAA book, with all its cockamamy rules, was consulted is a mystery to me. All AABC games use OBR for their main rules base.

SDSTEVE...
I wasnt "consulting" the college book. I know the rule. It was a few days after the game, and I just thought Id look it up, and see what the exact verbage was.
I realize the OBR book is used. However, I dont have a hard copy of the OBR, and I knew the rule was the same across all codes. I just happened to grab the college book.
So Steve..put down your Colombo overcoat, mystery is solved.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by chuckfan1

SDSTEVE...
I wasnt "consulting" the college book. I know the rule. It was a few days after the game, and I just thought Id look it up, and see what the exact verbage was.
I realize the OBR book is used. However, I dont have a hard copy of the OBR, and I knew the rule was the same across all codes. I just happened to grab the college book.
So Steve..put down your Colombo overcoat, mystery is solved.

Chuck, you can go to MLB Official Rules, bring up each section (they are .pdf files) and save them to your HD and print them.

And Steve is supposed to play Colombo. He paid a lot of money for that coat! Oh Steve, you look marrrrrrrrrrrrrrvelous in that coat!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by chuckfan1

So Steve..put down your Colombo overcoat, mystery is solved.

Just one more thing....

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Yes, it is contradictory being under the "Delayed Dead Ball" section and then saying "The ball becomes dead......". I only posted it with the other ones so those without access could view all three. Please let us know what Nick and the others say. Thanks Dash.

It was unanimous. If the throw retires the runner, ignore the INT.