Fair foul question

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by greymule

Unless I'm reading it wrong, the diagram depicts a pop that has first hit outside the 90 × 90 box. That's a fair ball no matter what happens next.

greymule,

I believe you are reading bobbybanaduck's diagram differently from what he intended.

By my read, the line depicting the flight path of the ball is intended to indicate that the ball is "in flight" until the small "break" in the line just inside the infield grass in front of the traditional shortstop position. I believe he intended the "break" in the line to indicate the point where the ball first touched the ground. If my read is correct, I would agree with his assertion that, if untouched, this would properly be ruled a foul ball under OBR rules (though this would properly be ruled a fair ball under FED rules).

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

...no matter where the ball initially lands, if it spins back untouched and crosses into foul ground by passing over the section of the foul line that extends from the plate to the base (marked in yellow in the diagram below), it is a foul ball. if it crosses into foul ground by passing over a section of the foul line that is at or beyond first or third base (marked in green in the diagram below), it is fair.

...

the only thing we use to judge fair or foul is where the ball actually crossed the foul line. theoretically, you could move this same situation in the diagram so that the ball lands behind the shortstop in the outfield and then spins all the way back to the same spot as marked in the diagram. where did it cross the foul line? before the first or third base bag. ...

bobby,

I gotta respectfully, but vehemently, disagree! You are completely disregarding one of the criteria used to judge the fair/foul status of a legally batted ball, namely:

(From the OBR definition of Fair Ball) ...or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, ...

(From the OBR definition of Foul Ball) ...or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base,

If an untouched "in flight" batted ball first touches the ground beyond 1st or 3rd base in fair territory, it is irrevocably a fair ball. If an untouched "in flight" batted ball first touches the ground beyond 1st or 3rd base in foul territory, it is irrevocably a foul ball. Says so right in the rules.

So, what is the proper criteria for determining whether or not a ball that is not "near the lines" is "beyond 1st or 3rd base"? The best clue we have from the rules is (my emphasis):

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: If a fly ball lands in the infield between home and first base, or home and third base, and then bounces to foul territory without touching a player or umpire and before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball; or if the ball settles on foul territory or is touched by a player on foul territory, it is a foul ball. If a fly ball lands on or beyond first or third base and then bounces to foul territory, it is a fair hit.

So, for OBR, a ball which first hits the ground beyond the 90' square whose corners are the base points in fair territory IS "beyond 1st or 3rd base" and is irrevocably fair.

JM

[bobbybanaduck]

"on or beyond" reads to me to be in the vicinity of 1st or 3rd base. by your logic, any ball that lands 90.0000000000000000000000000001 feet from home plate is irrevocably fair, yes? if so, then you contradicted yourself in agreeing that the ball in my diagram would be fair, because that point is more than 90 feet from the plate. i wasn't disregarding the criteria posted, i was assuming that we all knew that one. but i assumed too much because of my read of the rule, which i stated in the opening.

you're read of the diagram is correct. the ball lands where the break in the two lines is. the lines are actually 2 different colors, but they didn't come out looking very different.

[greymule]

the ball lands where the break in the two lines is

Then I was reading the diagram wrong. So I agree: foul.

[UmpJM]

bobby,

...by your logic, any ball that lands 90.0000000000000000000000000001 feet from home plate is irrevocably fair, yes?...

No, by by my logic, any untouched batted ball that first hits the ground in fair territory beyond the "technical infield" - i.e., beyond the square defined by the four base points - is irrevocably fair. I believe this is the proper OBR interpretation.

"On the lines" the ball would have to go at least 90.00000000000000001', while "dead center" it would have to go at least 127.3750000000000001'. Between the lines and dead center, it would have to travel at least a proportionate distance between those two.

I thought the segments of the broken line were two different colors, but I wasn't sure on my monitor.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

let's assume it had so much spin on it that when it finally landed it took off spinning backward and rolled, untouched, across the 3rd base line and settled in foul ground (indicated by the purple line.) this is a foul ball.

Even Tiger or Phil couldn't back up a ball that far!