[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by greymule

Unless I'm reading it wrong, the diagram depicts a pop that has first hit outside the 90 × 90 box. That's a fair ball no matter what happens next.

greymule,

I believe you are reading bobbybanaduck's diagram differently from what he intended.

By my read, the line depicting the flight path of the ball is intended to indicate that the ball is "in flight" until the small "break" in the line just inside the infield grass in front of the traditional shortstop position. I believe he intended the "break" in the line to indicate the point where the ball first touched the ground. If my read is correct, I would agree with his assertion that, if untouched, this would properly be ruled a foul ball under OBR rules (though this would properly be ruled a fair ball under FED rules).

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

...no matter where the ball initially lands, if it spins back untouched and crosses into foul ground by passing over the section of the foul line that extends from the plate to the base (marked in yellow in the diagram below), it is a foul ball. if it crosses into foul ground by passing over a section of the foul line that is at or beyond first or third base (marked in green in the diagram below), it is fair.

...

the only thing we use to judge fair or foul is where the ball actually crossed the foul line. theoretically, you could move this same situation in the diagram so that the ball lands behind the shortstop in the outfield and then spins all the way back to the same spot as marked in the diagram. where did it cross the foul line? before the first or third base bag. ...

bobby,

I gotta respectfully, but vehemently, disagree! You are completely disregarding one of the criteria used to judge the fair/foul status of a legally batted ball, namely:

(From the OBR definition of Fair Ball) ...or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, ...

(From the OBR definition of Foul Ball) ...or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base,

If an untouched "in flight" batted ball first touches the ground beyond 1st or 3rd base in fair territory, it is irrevocably a fair ball. If an untouched "in flight" batted ball first touches the ground beyond 1st or 3rd base in foul territory, it is irrevocably a foul ball. Says so right in the rules.

So, what is the proper criteria for determining whether or not a ball that is not "near the lines" is "beyond 1st or 3rd base"? The best clue we have from the rules is (my emphasis):

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: If a fly ball lands in the infield between home and first base, or home and third base, and then bounces to foul territory without touching a player or umpire and before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball; or if the ball settles on foul territory or is touched by a player on foul territory, it is a foul ball. If a fly ball lands on or beyond first or third base and then bounces to foul territory, it is a fair hit.

So, for OBR, a ball which first hits the ground beyond the 90' square whose corners are the base points in fair territory IS "beyond 1st or 3rd base" and is irrevocably fair.

JM