Rules Myths Part 1

[Shmuelg]

"Pitching
· The ball is always dead on a balk. FALSE in professional baseball and softball . . . "

Huh? Am I missing something here?

From OBR:

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—
. . .
(c) A balk is committed; runners advance; (See Penalty 8.05).

Seems to me that the ball *is* dead.

Softball is a different story. There is an "illegal pitch" which has its own set of rules.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Shmuelg

"Pitching
· The ball is always dead on a balk. FALSE in professional baseball and softball . . . "

Huh? Am I missing something here?

From OBR:

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—
. . .
(c) A balk is committed; runners advance; (See Penalty 8.05).

Seems to me that the ball *is* dead.

Softball is a different story. There is an "illegal pitch" which has its own set of rules.

Yes you are missing something. See Penalty 8.05

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Shmuelg

"Pitching
· The ball is always dead on a balk. FALSE in professional baseball and softball . . . "

Huh? Am I missing something here?

From OBR:

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—
. . .
(c) A balk is committed; runners advance; (See Penalty 8.05).

Seems to me that the ball *is* dead.

Softball is a different story. There is an "illegal pitch" which has its own set of rules.

In FED, you would be correct but in NCAA and OBR, we allow play to finish, then call the ball dead (delayed dead ball). OBR changed from immediate dead to delayed in the mid 1950's.

From the MLBUM 7.9

7.9 CALLING "TIME" AFTER A BALK
The penalty for balk allows the play to proceed without reference to the balk if the batter and all
runners advance one base on the pitch following the balk (i.e., the actual pitch and/or action
caused by the batter hitting the ball). The umpire shall not call "Time" until play stops following
the balk. The question therefore arises as to when the umpire is to call "Time" to kill the ball
after calling a balk. The following cases should help explain when play is considered "stopped"
and a what moment the umpire should call "Time" following the call of balk:
(1) If the pitcher balks and does not throw the ball, call "That's a balk; Time!" and enforce the balk.
(2) If the balk is followed by a batted ball, leave the ball in play until it is apparent that the batterand all runners will not advance one base. At that moment, call "Time" and enforce the balk. If, however, the batter reaches first base and all runners advance at least one base on play following the balk, play proceeds without reference to the balk.

EXAMPLES:
(a) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a fly ball that is caught, call "Time" the moment the fly ball is caught. Then enforce the balk.
(b) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a ground-out on a previous runner at the base to which he would be entitled because of the balk, call "Time" the moment the out is made. Then enforce the balk.
(3) If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations covered in item (5) below.)
(4) If the balk is followed by a pick-off throw to a base that is caught by a fielder, call "Time" the moment the fielder catches the ball. Then enforce the balk.
(5) If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call "Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(6) If the balk is followed by a pitch that strikes the batter, call "Time" the moment the pitch strikes the batter. Then enforce the balk unless the hit batter forces all other runners to advance one base, in which case play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(7) If the balk is followed by a wild throw to a base, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk. In that situation the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call "Time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield).
(8) If the balk is followed by a wild pitch, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk. In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call "Time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and an fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).

Note that even if the runner advances to or beyond the base to which he is entitled because of a wild pitch following a balk, the balk is still "acknowledged." That is, the pitch is nullified and the batter will resume the at-bat with the count that existed when the balk occurred unless:
(a) The wild pitch was ball four on which all runners advanced one base; or
(b) The wild pitch was strike three on which the batter and all other runners advanced one base.
In both situations (a) and (b) above, play proceeds without reference to the balk, because all runners (including the batter-runner) advanced one base on the pitch following the balk.

There, that should cover it for you Smuelg and hopefully shut up the "want-to-be, know nothings" that are lurking about. Funny, I just proved Garth correct, didn't I there, lurkers?

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by Tim C

....studies that showed that the human brain can not determine the order of activities if they occur inside a time frame of .04 of a second. The brain simply cannot determine what happens in what order.
Regards,

I've seen this written several times, but the statement certainly isn't true in a general sense, and not always true in a baseball sense.

Here's a specific non-baseball instance: A spectator at a top-fuel drag race, if positioned in the grandstands along the finish line extended, can easily see which car is first to the line, even if the two cars are separated by just one foot or less. So he can correctly order the times at which the two cars crossed the line with a resolution of about 2 or 3 milliseconds. Two circumstances are key to this: the spectator is using only one sense (vision), and the events are not isolated: both events as well as their timing are predictable from the path and velocities of the cars. Contast that to the NBA where the timing of a shot is predictable, but shot clock buzzer isn't.

A second instance: Humans can discern the direction from which sounds have emanated. The primary mechanism depends on the difference in arrival time at our two ears. We routinely accurately judge not only the order of arrival, but the magnitude of the difference, at 1 millisecond or better. In fact, in a quiet room, for a sound source nearly equidistant to the two ears, we can order the arrival times within a few tens of microseconds! Once again, only one sense is employed (hearing). It is also important that the sounds reaching our two ears have nearly identical waveforms. On the other hand, surprise is not a problem.

In baseball, when the play at first is a race between a fielder and the runner, we can tell who arrived first if the the feet are separated by a 3 or 4 inches--about a third of a foot or approximately 10 milliseconds. Again only vision is used, and there is no surprise.

Now on to what I suspect may be controversial:
For a play at first involving a thrown ball, a good umpire will have seen the ball being thrown (he needs to know if it is a quality throw), and will, whether he knows it or not, have formed an estimate of when it will arrive at first base. He can also see when the runner is approaching the base. The two events are fairly predictable. Then, if he knows the play will be close, and he uses his eyes to check for a pulled foot, and his ears to hear the sound of the foot striking the bag and the ball hitting the glove, he'll be able to do considerably better than 40 milliseconds. There are two different kinds sounds depending on which occurred first. With practice, by identifying the character of the sound, you can tell which occurred first.

Don't believe it? Well, even for a fast runner, 40 milliseconds is more than a foot of travel. Watch enough television replays of close plays at first base, and you'll see that the professional guys call it correctly when there is well less than a foot difference.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Don't believe it? Well, even for a fast runner, 40 milliseconds is more than a foot of travel. Watch enough television replays of close plays at first base, and you'll see that the professional guys call it correctly when there is well less than a foot difference.

Its not that I don't believe it if the stadium were completely empty. I find it hard to believe when the stadium is completely full and the home crowd yells safe or out moments before the ball makes a sound in the mitt. I find it hard to believe, a MLB umpire will hear every catch in these realistic conditions.

An umpire has to rely on more than hearing, vision is a good indicator. One good eye can move or jump many times in .04 secs and provide more value than both ears combined. Sorry, but at my age, I can't hear ****, so you must speak loudly in a quiet room. Sorry, will you repeat that. I can't hear you. But I would never dare umpire if I knew I were blind as a bat. Eyesight allows you to see foot hit the bag. Then hearing confirms what you already knew.

Umpires are as bug-eyed as you can get. Whatever detail one eye can capture, two eyes focused on the same spot always improve the details of sight within our brain. Now imagine an umpire with an ability to focus or shift eyes, called rapid eye movement, independently of one focal point. The improvement in vision would not only be twice as significant, it would exponentially increase, by a power of two {no pun intended}. Known as stereoscopic vision, vision of simple 2-D image would maginify the 3-D aspects of depth necessary for our brain to accurately judge the time of touch and time of catch together.

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by Tim C

BTW, the NTSB study noted that highly trained officials use other information when making decisions and therefore are more often than not correct even when the brain cannot determine the difference.

What types of other information do they use?

[zebra2955]

OK I will ask this again

With no runners on base, it is a ball if the pitcher starts his windup and then stops. FALSE in professional baseball, but TRUE in high school baseball and softball. In professional baseball, this is just a no-pitch

Where in the FED book is this located. I cannot find it and need some help

[ljdave]

Originally Posted by zebra2955

OK I will ask this again

With no runners on base, it is a ball if the pitcher starts his windup and then stops. FALSE in professional baseball, but TRUE in high school baseball and softball. In professional baseball, this is just a no-pitch

Where in the FED book is this located. I cannot find it and need some help

Zebra, I read this whole strand looking for the answer to your original question. Sorry, but I don't have anything definite, either. Although, I think you and I agree that in NFHS it is not a ball; it's nothing. Same as if the pitcher on the rubber drops the ball (And it doesn't cross the foul line); it's a balk if there are runners and no-pitch if there are no runners. This may have been a rule change a few years ago......

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ljdave

Zebra, I read this whole strand looking for the answer to your original question. Sorry, but I don't have anything definite, either. Although, I think you and I agree that in NFHS it is not a ball; it's nothing. Same as if the pitcher on the rubber drops the ball (And it doesn't cross the foul line); it's a balk if there are runners and no-pitch if there are no runners. This may have been a rule change a few years ago......

Not correct. As previously posted, starting and stopping is a ball in FED with no runners on. Starting and stopping is defined as an illegal pitch in 6-2-4, the penalty for which is given at the end of 6-1-3.

This is NOT the same as dropping the ball, which is addressed separately in 6-1-4.

[LMSANS]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Not correct. As previously posted, starting and stopping is a ball in FED with no runners on. Starting and stopping is defined as an illegal pitch in 6-2-4, the penalty for which is given at the end of 6-1-3.

This is NOT the same as dropping the ball, which is addressed separately in 6-1-4.

How about 6-2-2c ...failing to pitch or make or attempt a play, including a legal feint, within 20 seconds after he has received the ball.
PENALTY:The batter shall be awarded one ball.