Failure to Slide

[mbyron]

Oz, that's not correct either. Sliding directly into a catcher blocking the plate could hardly be interpreted as trying to avoid contact, yet it is perfectly legal under these safety rules.

[bob jenkins]

I've used the phrase "Get Down, Go Around or Give Up." Then, explain the terms: Get Down = Slide; what's legal, what's not. etc.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by DG

11 year olds are fully capable of understanding slide or avoid contact, whether catcher has the ball or not. Never tell them to jump over because you have thus given bad information.

Yep. Jumping over a fielder has been illegal in FED for years, and starting this year its also illegal in USSSA.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

What's USSSA? I'm assuming that I don't work USSSA...that rule is silly

United States Specialty Sports Association. Its an organization that governs many differents sports from baseball and basketball to golf and karate. They also create rules for modified sports such as six person indoor softball.

Speaking on the baseball part, USSSA has taken off here in the midwest and many travel team tournaments use that set of rules and by-laws.

http://www.usssa.com

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Got my USSSA book right here.

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go around or seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher. Attempting to jump, leap, or dive over a the fielder and/or catcher is not an act of avoiding contact. Malicious contact shall supersede all obstruction penalties. PENALTY: Runner shall be called out and may be ejected from the game at the umpres discretion.

The aforementioned is the problem with amateur baseball these days.

Bottom Line: There will be contact. The question? Is it malicious and/or legal

If you want to explain the rule to an 11 yr. old then explain by example. If you can get a tape of what Pete Rose did to Ray Fosse, then show it to him and say

You CANNOT do that or any other violent collission we had in the past regarding plays at the plate.

Also, if you go strictly by this wording

Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide,

you are going to have a "can of worms" on your hand.

Example: R3 heading home, a tag play is evident HOWEVER, the ball now sails over F2's head or gets by F2. According to the way the rule is written R3 MUST slide even though there is no need to.

IMO, insurance companies have ruined amateur baseball and each year the game gets diluted by safety rule changes.

Then who gets the blame? Of Course we do because we are the ones who have to enforce these rules.

IMO, simply mirror the NCAA Collission rule which IMO makes the best sense. Collission un-avoidable for the most part play on. Collission avoidable and violated then penalize.

I do not like phrases such as "avoid contact" If you want to avoid contact then play golf.

Pete Booth

[David B]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I've used the phrase "Get Down, Go Around or Give Up." Then, explain the terms: Get Down = Slide; what's legal, what's not. etc.

That's the way I've used it in HS, also when talking with even "coaches who don't know the rules"

Especially useful at second when the coach comes out saying "he didn't slide"

It covers it all and easy to understand!

In my training of umpires, we just tell them "never tell anyone they have to slide" If someone violates a contact rule anywhere, then we just umpire.

The way the rule interpreters are moving, in youth ball its just a matter of time and the only way they will be able to make contact is with a slide though.

Thank goodness I don't do small ball anymore, but I do have to endure it with my 10 year old ...

Thanks
David

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by Rufus

My ask from you all is if there are any other USSSA specific rules that you are aware of that would be good to pass on to an 11U team? In other words, what are some of the common rule gaffes you've seen players make as they move up (or just in general)? The rule book, as you know, is long and open to interpretation, and my time with them is short so I would appreciate any assistance you could offer.

Persistent and accidental obstruction (OBS); kids watching the bal or game and not clearing th base paths.

[TwoBits]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Also, if you go strictly by this wording you are going to have a "can of worms" on your hand.


Pete Booth

The complete rule is:

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go aroundor seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher.

My interpretation and the way it should be explained to coaches is that a runner has three choices:
1) Slide
2) Go around
3) Seek to avoid contact

It's not a runner "must slide" every time.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Oz, that's not correct either. Sliding directly into a catcher blocking the plate could hardly be interpreted as trying to avoid contact, yet it is perfectly legal under these safety rules.

You're right MB! See even a seasoned umpire can't write a rule about having a runner slide! So why are people trying write this $hit all the time!

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=TwoBits]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

I do not like the wording "seek to avoid contact"

Baseball contrary to popular belief IS a contact sport. The rule is vague and can cause all kinds of problems the way it is worded.

Also, suppose a runner comes in standing up when a play is evident. Is that act alone reason to call the out. As I mentioned even though a tag play is evident doesn't mean the runner has the three choices you gave. If the ball gets away or the throw is off line why does the runner have to slide, Go around or seek to avoid contact.

Whenever a league puts in it's own "house rule" beware.

USSSA should have simply adopted the FED/NCAA rule as WRITTEN without adding their own nuances to it.

Pete Booth

[David B]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

I do not like the wording "seek to avoid contact"

Baseball contrary to popular belief IS a contact sport. The rule is vague and can cause all kinds of problems the way it is worded.

Also, suppose a runner comes in standing up when a play is evident. Is that act alone reason to call the out. As I mentioned even though a tag play is evident doesn't mean the runner has the three choices you gave. If the ball gets away or the throw is off line why does the runner have to slide, Go around or seek to avoid contact.

Whenever a league puts in it's own "house rule" beware.

USSSA should have simply adopted the FED/NCAA rule as WRITTEN without adding their own nuances to it.

Pete Booth

Pete,

Sadly you're correct. Give it a few more years and if there is contact on the field someone will expect a call.

Lawsuits will eventually ruin the game of baseball as we knew it when we were growing up.

Combine the mentality we played with, "if he's in the way run over him" with the rule changes of today and kids can't help but be confused.

Thanks
David

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by David B

David IMO you are right-on about insurance companies ruining amateur baseball.

Do not know about the rest of the country but in my area HS baseball is "low on the totum poll" when it comes to budget allotment.

Without all these safety rules (and they seem to be modified each and every year) the schools could not afford the insurance costs, hence the rules have been 'watered down"

I envy the baseball officials from my generation. basically all they had to do was show up and call the game balls / strikes / safes and outs. The game was policed BY US and none of this checking of equipment.

Also, when I played even if you were 100% correct we could not argue with an official. if we did the coach sat us down. He was the Only one who would go out and question an official.

Pete Booth

[TwoBits]

USSSA does have one up on local league rules. "Seek to avoid contact" gives the umpire control to use his judgement, and if I believe the runner was trying to avoid contact, then he's going to be okay. Local leagues and their "must slide" rule eliminates that option.

The bottom line is to avoid malicious contact and not have 11 year olds attempt a violent home plate collision like they see on TV.

[Interested Ump]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

I do not like the wording "seek to avoid contact"

Baseball contrary to popular belief IS a contact sport. The rule is vague and can cause all kinds of problems the way it is worded.
Pete Booth

"All kinds of problems" for whom? Umpires? So what?

The rule is there to meet insurance regulations/guidelines and if this makes your life difficult, then go call MiLB. I tire of hearing the constant whine from umpires about how rules interps makes tier lives soooooo troblesome. I have a clue for all of you.

It's going to get worse than better.

Best you GTF up and deal with the realities, adults for many years tauaght kids to play baseball like football. The injuries and fatalities mounted until there haad to b something done. Now that these rules are being implemented, Pete here claims they create "all kinds of problems".

The problems are not the rules, they are Pete Booth.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by Interested Ump

I have a clue for all of you.

It's going to get worse than better.

I don't disagree with that.

Originally Posted by Interested Ump

Best you GTF up and deal with the realities, adults for many years tauaght kids to play baseball like football. The injuries and fatalities mounted until there haad to b something done.

I don't if the problem really is Pete Booth, as you go on to say, but I wonder about that last sentence.

I've only been back in the States for about 14 months, now, but "fatalities mounted" ??? What, was there some kind of Jericho-like apocalypse I didn't hear about?

Kids have been killed, this much I know, but from line drives to the chest and head, usually. Is that somehow the fault of Evil Coaching? "Hit that ball in this way, son, so it stops his heart on contact."

Have you got numbers or anything on this subject?