Failure to Slide

[Rufus]

Well, it didn't take too long. Our first game of the season and one of my best players got picked off 3rd, ran to home, was thrown out, then ran into the catcher (not a violent contact - they both stayed on their feet - but their bodies did collide). Home umpire called him out on the tag then ejected him from the game for not sliding.

First of all, as a coach I take the responsibility for not having taught the team that you have to slide if a tag is imminent (we're playing under USSSA rules). Having sad that I read the rule about sliding and it said that if the contact is malicious that is supersedes obstruction and that the runner may be ejected on the umpire's discretion. In the comment it says that umpire should judge the runner's intent. In our case the runner did not "load" up and barrel into the catcher and both remained on their feet after the contact.

This is a judgment call, obviously, as well as a rules interpretation. It was still frustrating though and the player took it hard (that's how I'm sure it wasn't malicious - he'd have been celebrating the hit and protesting the ejection if it was - neither of which occurred). I'm going through the rules now and will try to bring out similar nuggets for the players to use going forward.

My ask from you all is if there are any other USSSA specific rules that you are aware of that would be good to pass on to an 11U team? In other words, what are some of the common rule gaffes you've seen players make as they move up (or just in general)? The rule book, as you know, is long and open to interpretation, and my time with them is short so I would appreciate any assistance you could offer.

[johnnyg08]

I'd have to see the play...but I don't know of a rule out there that has a "must slide" provision...

[TwoBits]

Got my USSSA book right here.

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go around or seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher. Attempting to jump, leap, or dive over a the fielder and/or catcher is not an act of avoiding contact. Malicious contact shall supersede all obstruction penalties. PENALTY: Runner shall be called out and may be ejected from the game at the umpres discretion. COMMENT: When enforcing this rule, the umpire should judge the runner's intent. If the umpire adjudges that the contact was unintentional, then the runer shall only be called out. If the umpire adjudges that the contact was intentional and/or malicious, then the runner shall be called out and ejected from the game.

The key to this rule, as Rufus has already mentioned, is umpire's judgement. Did he feel the contact was intentional or malicious? If he does, then he can eject.

In response to your other question, other rule gaffes I see players (and coaches) at this level make are:

-Failure to pause in the set position
-Thinking the baseline belongs to the runner and they are allowed to contact a fielder even when they are making a play on a batted ball
-Sending stealing runners back to their bases at the time of pitch on foul-tips because they think its a dead ball
-And this one is on coaches: MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND USSSA PITCHING LIMITATIONS! Review the three column chart in USSSA Rule 8.05, and don't cost your team a victory because you throw a pitcher too many innings. I see it happen at least once a year.

[johnnyg08]

What's USSSA? I'm assuming that I don't work USSSA...that rule is silly

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

What's USSSA? I'm assuming that I don't work USSSA...that rule is silly

United States Specialty Sports Association. Its an organization that governs many differents sports from baseball and basketball to golf and karate. They also create rules for modified sports such as six person indoor softball.

Speaking on the baseball part, USSSA has taken off here in the midwest and many travel team tournaments use that set of rules and by-laws.

http://www.usssa.com

[mbyron]

As usual: there is no "must slide" rule. The safety rule is: slide or avoid contact.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Got my USSSA book right here.

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go around or seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher. Attempting to jump, leap, or dive over a the fielder and/or catcher is not an act of avoiding contact. Malicious contact shall supersede all obstruction penalties. PENALTY: Runner shall be called out and may be ejected from the game at the umpres discretion.

The aforementioned is the problem with amateur baseball these days.

Bottom Line: There will be contact. The question? Is it malicious and/or legal

If you want to explain the rule to an 11 yr. old then explain by example. If you can get a tape of what Pete Rose did to Ray Fosse, then show it to him and say

You CANNOT do that or any other violent collission we had in the past regarding plays at the plate.

Also, if you go strictly by this wording

Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide,

you are going to have a "can of worms" on your hand.

Example: R3 heading home, a tag play is evident HOWEVER, the ball now sails over F2's head or gets by F2. According to the way the rule is written R3 MUST slide even though there is no need to.

IMO, insurance companies have ruined amateur baseball and each year the game gets diluted by safety rule changes.

Then who gets the blame? Of Course we do because we are the ones who have to enforce these rules.

IMO, simply mirror the NCAA Collission rule which IMO makes the best sense. Collission un-avoidable for the most part play on. Collission avoidable and violated then penalize.

I do not like phrases such as "avoid contact" If you want to avoid contact then play golf.

Pete Booth

[TwoBits]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Also, if you go strictly by this wording you are going to have a "can of worms" on your hand.


Pete Booth

The complete rule is:

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go aroundor seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher.

My interpretation and the way it should be explained to coaches is that a runner has three choices:
1) Slide
2) Go around
3) Seek to avoid contact

It's not a runner "must slide" every time.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=TwoBits]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

I do not like the wording "seek to avoid contact"

Baseball contrary to popular belief IS a contact sport. The rule is vague and can cause all kinds of problems the way it is worded.

Also, suppose a runner comes in standing up when a play is evident. Is that act alone reason to call the out. As I mentioned even though a tag play is evident doesn't mean the runner has the three choices you gave. If the ball gets away or the throw is off line why does the runner have to slide, Go around or seek to avoid contact.

Whenever a league puts in it's own "house rule" beware.

USSSA should have simply adopted the FED/NCAA rule as WRITTEN without adding their own nuances to it.

Pete Booth

[DG]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

If you want to explain the rule to an 11 yr. old then explain by example. If you can get a tape of what Pete Rose did to Ray Fosse, then show it to him and say

You CANNOT do that or any other violent collission we had in the past regarding plays at the plate.

I have two great videos of maliciouis collision at the plate, one when my son (the catcher) was 10 and another when we was 11. These were in Bambino games (Babe Ruth Ripken division was formerly called Babe Ruth Bambino division) at a time when Babe Ruth did not have a malicious contact rule. I wrote Babe Ruth baseball on the subject and included the videos. A couple years later the rule was added to all divisions. I will never know if my letter and videos had any impact on that decision but I hope they did.

11 year olds can definitely be taught what not to do even without videos. By nature they want to avoid malicious contact. They would have to be coached to do it. Teaching them not to do it is easy..

[David B]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Well, it didn't take too long. Our first game of the season and one of my best players got picked off 3rd, ran to home, was thrown out, then ran into the catcher (not a violent contact - they both stayed on their feet - but their bodies did collide). Home umpire called him out on the tag then ejected him from the game for not sliding.

First of all, as a coach I take the responsibility for not having taught the team that you have to slide if a tag is imminent (we're playing under USSSA rules). Having sad that I read the rule about sliding and it said that if the contact is malicious that is supersedes obstruction and that the runner may be ejected on the umpire's discretion. In the comment it says that umpire should judge the runner's intent. In our case the runner did not "load" up and barrel into the catcher and both remained on their feet after the contact.

This is a judgment call, obviously, as well as a rules interpretation. It was still frustrating though and the player took it hard (that's how I'm sure it wasn't malicious - he'd have been celebrating the hit and protesting the ejection if it was - neither of which occurred). I'm going through the rules now and will try to bring out similar nuggets for the players to use going forward.

My ask from you all is if there are any other USSSA specific rules that you are aware of that would be good to pass on to an 11U team? In other words, what are some of the common rule gaffes you've seen players make as they move up (or just in general)? The rule book, as you know, is long and open to interpretation, and my time with them is short so I would appreciate any assistance you could offer.

The best way I've seen it taught is "avoid contact with the fielder making the play". Seems to be a good mental approach for young players.

Saying you "must slide" is never a good thing.

Thanks
David

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by David B

The best way I've seen it taught is "avoid contact with the fielder making the play". Seems to be a good mental approach for young players.

Saying you "must slide" is never a good thing.

Thanks
David

That's just as misleading as "must slide." What's so hard about "slide OR avoid contact"?

[David B]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That's just as misleading as "must slide." What's so hard about "slide OR avoid contact"?

Not misleading with young players ... that's who can benefit from this mentality. My son's coach used this last year and it worked great.

You can slide and have malicious contact, but if you avoid contact, it's kind of difficult.

Thanks
David

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by David B

Not misleading with young players ... that's who can benefit from this mentality. My son's coach used this last year and it worked great.

You can slide and have malicious contact, but if you avoid contact, it's kind of difficult.

Thanks
David

Yes, misleading to everyone. There is no "must slide" rule. There is no "avoid contact" rule. To say that a player must always do (the same) one of these is wrong, and thus misleading.

So, you advocate avoiding contact on every play because you have to teach players to avoid malicious contact? Sounds like the baby's gone out with the bathwater.

[David B]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Yes, misleading to everyone. There is no "must slide" rule. There is no "avoid contact" rule. To say that a player must always do (the same) one of these is wrong, and thus misleading.

So, you advocate avoiding contact on every play because you have to teach players to avoid malicious contact? Sounds like the baby's gone out with the bathwater.

Sorry, I guess one of us missed the point. The initial post was about USSSA ball and dealing with 11 yr olds. This is not OBR or FED rules we are talking about.

But, FED does have the same slide or avoid contact rule you mentioned. However, to try and explain that to an 11 year old, ain't gonna happen.

But its easy to tell them if he has the ball, you have to try and avoid him, go around, slide, jump over, what ever you want. Then let the umpire make the call.

But by avoiding, you will NOT get ejected which is what happened in the game mentioned above.

Now for older players etc., you and I will agree, use the words in the book.

Thanks
David