Failure to Slide

[Rufus]

Well, it didn't take too long. Our first game of the season and one of my best players got picked off 3rd, ran to home, was thrown out, then ran into the catcher (not a violent contact - they both stayed on their feet - but their bodies did collide). Home umpire called him out on the tag then ejected him from the game for not sliding.

First of all, as a coach I take the responsibility for not having taught the team that you have to slide if a tag is imminent (we're playing under USSSA rules). Having sad that I read the rule about sliding and it said that if the contact is malicious that is supersedes obstruction and that the runner may be ejected on the umpire's discretion. In the comment it says that umpire should judge the runner's intent. In our case the runner did not "load" up and barrel into the catcher and both remained on their feet after the contact.

This is a judgment call, obviously, as well as a rules interpretation. It was still frustrating though and the player took it hard (that's how I'm sure it wasn't malicious - he'd have been celebrating the hit and protesting the ejection if it was - neither of which occurred). I'm going through the rules now and will try to bring out similar nuggets for the players to use going forward.

My ask from you all is if there are any other USSSA specific rules that you are aware of that would be good to pass on to an 11U team? In other words, what are some of the common rule gaffes you've seen players make as they move up (or just in general)? The rule book, as you know, is long and open to interpretation, and my time with them is short so I would appreciate any assistance you could offer.

[johnnyg08]

I'd have to see the play...but I don't know of a rule out there that has a "must slide" provision...

[TwoBits]

Got my USSSA book right here.

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go around or seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher. Attempting to jump, leap, or dive over a the fielder and/or catcher is not an act of avoiding contact. Malicious contact shall supersede all obstruction penalties. PENALTY: Runner shall be called out and may be ejected from the game at the umpres discretion. COMMENT: When enforcing this rule, the umpire should judge the runner's intent. If the umpire adjudges that the contact was unintentional, then the runer shall only be called out. If the umpire adjudges that the contact was intentional and/or malicious, then the runner shall be called out and ejected from the game.

The key to this rule, as Rufus has already mentioned, is umpire's judgement. Did he feel the contact was intentional or malicious? If he does, then he can eject.

In response to your other question, other rule gaffes I see players (and coaches) at this level make are:

-Failure to pause in the set position
-Thinking the baseline belongs to the runner and they are allowed to contact a fielder even when they are making a play on a batted ball
-Sending stealing runners back to their bases at the time of pitch on foul-tips because they think its a dead ball
-And this one is on coaches: MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND USSSA PITCHING LIMITATIONS! Review the three column chart in USSSA Rule 8.05, and don't cost your team a victory because you throw a pitcher too many innings. I see it happen at least once a year.

[johnnyg08]

What's USSSA? I'm assuming that I don't work USSSA...that rule is silly

[mbyron]

As usual: there is no "must slide" rule. The safety rule is: slide or avoid contact.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Well, it didn't take too long. Our first game of the season and one of my best players got picked off 3rd, ran to home, was thrown out, then ran into the catcher (not a violent contact - they both stayed on their feet - but their bodies did collide). Home umpire called him out on the tag then ejected him from the game for not sliding.

First of all, as a coach I take the responsibility for not having taught the team that you have to slide if a tag is imminent (we're playing under USSSA rules). Having sad that I read the rule about sliding and it said that if the contact is malicious that is supersedes obstruction and that the runner may be ejected on the umpire's discretion. In the comment it says that umpire should judge the runner's intent. In our case the runner did not "load" up and barrel into the catcher and both remained on their feet after the contact.

This is a judgment call, obviously, as well as a rules interpretation. It was still frustrating though and the player took it hard (that's how I'm sure it wasn't malicious - he'd have been celebrating the hit and protesting the ejection if it was - neither of which occurred). I'm going through the rules now and will try to bring out similar nuggets for the players to use going forward.

My ask from you all is if there are any other USSSA specific rules that you are aware of that would be good to pass on to an 11U team? In other words, what are some of the common rule gaffes you've seen players make as they move up (or just in general)? The rule book, as you know, is long and open to interpretation, and my time with them is short so I would appreciate any assistance you could offer.

The best way I've seen it taught is "avoid contact with the fielder making the play". Seems to be a good mental approach for young players.

Saying you "must slide" is never a good thing.

Thanks
David

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by David B

The best way I've seen it taught is "avoid contact with the fielder making the play". Seems to be a good mental approach for young players.

Saying you "must slide" is never a good thing.

Thanks
David

That's just as misleading as "must slide." What's so hard about "slide OR avoid contact"?

[David B]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That's just as misleading as "must slide." What's so hard about "slide OR avoid contact"?

Not misleading with young players ... that's who can benefit from this mentality. My son's coach used this last year and it worked great.

You can slide and have malicious contact, but if you avoid contact, it's kind of difficult.

Thanks
David

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by David B

Not misleading with young players ... that's who can benefit from this mentality. My son's coach used this last year and it worked great.

You can slide and have malicious contact, but if you avoid contact, it's kind of difficult.

Thanks
David

Yes, misleading to everyone. There is no "must slide" rule. There is no "avoid contact" rule. To say that a player must always do (the same) one of these is wrong, and thus misleading.

So, you advocate avoiding contact on every play because you have to teach players to avoid malicious contact? Sounds like the baby's gone out with the bathwater.

[David B]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Yes, misleading to everyone. There is no "must slide" rule. There is no "avoid contact" rule. To say that a player must always do (the same) one of these is wrong, and thus misleading.

So, you advocate avoiding contact on every play because you have to teach players to avoid malicious contact? Sounds like the baby's gone out with the bathwater.

Sorry, I guess one of us missed the point. The initial post was about USSSA ball and dealing with 11 yr olds. This is not OBR or FED rules we are talking about.

But, FED does have the same slide or avoid contact rule you mentioned. However, to try and explain that to an 11 year old, ain't gonna happen.

But its easy to tell them if he has the ball, you have to try and avoid him, go around, slide, jump over, what ever you want. Then let the umpire make the call.

But by avoiding, you will NOT get ejected which is what happened in the game mentioned above.

Now for older players etc., you and I will agree, use the words in the book.

Thanks
David

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by David B

Sorry, I guess one of us missed the point. The initial post was about USSSA ball and dealing with 11 yr olds. This is not OBR or FED rules we are talking about.

But, FED does have the same slide or avoid contact rule you mentioned. However, to try and explain that to an 11 year old, ain't gonna happen.

It's my contention that if a kid can swing the bat, then he can learn the rules. Teaching the rules wrong is one way myths get perpetuated.

[DG]

Originally Posted by David B

But, FED does have the same slide or avoid contact rule you mentioned. However, to try and explain that to an 11 year old, ain't gonna happen.

But its easy to tell them if he has the ball, you have to try and avoid him, go around, slide, jump over, what ever you want. Then let the umpire make the call.

11 year olds are fully capable of understanding slide or avoid contact, whether catcher has the ball or not. Never tell them to jump over because you have thus given bad information.

[UmpJM]

I find myself of like mind with mbyron and DG.

From my experience, whatever age you begin to start teaching the players the more "complicated rules", interference & obstruction, appeals, balks & baserunning, it takes them a little while to get it. I have found that 11 year olds learn these almost as quickly as 14 year olds when being first taught the concepts.

Teach 'em right from the "get go".

JM

[MrUmpire]

Please remember it is not "slide or avoid contact." It is slide or ATTEMPT to avoid contact, or TRY to avoid contact, or SEEK to avoid contact.

Contact happens.

[ozzy6900]

The USSSA rule is typical of a mis-written and mis-interpreted rule. This is because the writers of the rule had no gramatacl training and the readers are just as stupid. *

Here's the rule:** note no reference to TwoBits is intended other than that he was the author of the post with the rule. ***

Originally Posted by TwoBits

USSSA Rule 8.04D: Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must slide, go around or seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher. Attempting to jump, leap, or dive over a the fielder and/or catcher is not an act of avoiding contact. Malicious contact shall supersede all obstruction penalties. PENALTY: Runner shall be called out and may be ejected from the game at the umpres discretion. COMMENT: When enforcing this rule, the umpire should judge the runner's intent. If the umpire adjudges that the contact was unintentional, then the runer shall only be called out. If the umpire adjudges that the contact was intentional and/or malicious, then the runner shall be called out and ejected from the game.

Maybe it would be better if it were written as follows:

• Whenever a tag play is evident, runners must seek to avoid contact with the fielder and/or catcher. This may be accomplished by (but not limited to) sliding or going around the fielder and/or catcher. Malicious contact shall supersede all obstruction penalties. PENALTY: Runner shall be called out and may be ejected from the game at the umpres discretion. COMMENT: When enforcing this rule, the umpire should judge the runner's intent. If the umpire adjudges that the contact was unintentional, then the runer shall only be called out. If the umpire adjudges that the contact was intentional and/or malicious, then the runner shall be called out and ejected from the game.

Now, not even a coach could call this a "must slide" rule.

Ooops! I just realized that I am expecting coaches to be intelligent! Forget the whole thing!