BR gets tagged after overrunning 1stbase

[_Bruno_]

hi,
BR beats the throw to 1stbase but does not touch it.
while he walks back to 1stbase, F3 tags him without making an appeal like "he didnt touch the bag" or anything else that makes clear, why he tags the runner.

do we call an out here ?

[mbyron]

Signal "safe" when the runner beats the ball to 1B, even though he misses the base. When BR misses the bag, I verbalize nothing, just signal.

When F3 tags BR, for me that's an unmistakeable appeal: why else would F3 be tagging him? I don't need a verbal announcement of intent: I'm banging the out.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

hi,
BR beats the throw to 1stbase but does not touch it.
while he walks back to 1stbase, F3 tags him without making an appeal like "he didnt touch the bag" or anything else that makes clear, why he tags the runner.

do we call an out here ?

It's an appeal. It needs to be clear. In some instances, the act of the tag itself might be clear enough (because there's rarely otherwise a tag of BR after overruning first). At some lower-level games, you might get away with asking,"What are you doing?" If the answer is "just playing games" or "seeing if the runner made an attempt toward second", then it's not an out.

[dino14]

What if he simply touched the bag?

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by dino14

What if he simply touched the bag?

nope.

[umpjong]

In both of these cases, (either tagging him or tagging the base) you have an out. His action of tagging him or the base is an appeal. Im also not going to signal safe as he runs by due to the fact that I have nothing yet.

I've also got an out if the runner steps over the bag just before F3 catches the ball with his foot on the bag. Simple mechanics are your out you missed the base.

[etn_ump]

Originally Posted by umpjong

In both of these cases, (either tagging him or tagging the base) you have an out. His action of tagging him or the base is an appeal. Im also not going to signal safe as he runs by due to the fact that I have nothing yet.

I've also got an out if the runner steps over the bag just before F3 catches the ball with his foot on the bag. Simple mechanics are your out you missed the base.

Uhh, I'm pretty sure your wrong on both of these.

Scratch that. I know you're wrong on both of these.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by umpjong

In both of these cases, (either tagging him or tagging the base) you have an out. His action of tagging him or the base is an appeal. Im also not going to signal safe as he runs by due to the fact that I have nothing yet.

I've also got an out if the runner steps over the bag just before F3 catches the ball with his foot on the bag. Simple mechanics are your out you missed the base.

umpjong,

As in all things, do as you think best - but you will be WRONG.

Now, I'll grant you that there is credible difference of opinion as to whether or not a tag of the base can "properly constitute" an appeal in this sitch (I don't think so, but some other people who know a lot about this stuff think it can) so we'll just say, "OK" on that one.

Now, if the batter-runner passes the bag without touching it and the F3 subsequently tags the base, the runner is, by rule, safe until the defense properly appeals. (See Rule 7.10).

The "simple" mechanic may be to do as you suggest, but the proper mechanic is to signal SAFE!.

JM

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by etn_ump

Uhh, I'm pretty sure your wrong on both of these.

Scratch that. I know you're wrong on both of these.

This same discussion came up earlier (not on a web site). A triple A minor league umpire curled his eyes and made it very clear that this runner is out - period. Bottom line is, he did not touch the base safely prior to being tagged or beat to the base. And then he asked, "why would you reward someone for missing a base?

Looked briefly for Fed variance, if there is one someone can post it. But sometimes common sense does prevail.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by umpjong

This same discussion came up earlier (not on a web site). A triple A minor league umpire curled his eyes and made it very clear that this runner is out - period. Bottom line is, he did not touch the base safely prior to being tagged or beat to the base.

I don't believe you. Pro instruction on this play is -- and has been for decades -- as others have posted: if the BR beats the ball to the base, then he is safe, and you signal safe, whether he touches the base or not. If not, then BR is liable to be put out on appeal.

Troll alert.

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't believe you. Pro instruction on this play is -- and has been for decades -- as others have posted: if the BR beats the ball to the base, then he is safe, and you signal safe, whether he touches the base or not. If not, then BR is liable to be put out on appeal.

Troll alert.

You can believe what you want, just telling you what he said.
And I do agree with his assessment. Again answer why you would reward a player for missing a base? This play at first base is a little different, as this is the base you can over run. I will agree that the close play discussed (where runner passed base without touching, and ball then being caught by F3 and on base) is a grey area, but again as he explained it, who touched the base first? If this is wrong then post verification. Just relating what I was told.

Originally Posted by umpjong

You can believe what you want, just telling you what he said.
And I do agree with his assessment. Again answer why you would reward a player for missing a base? This play at first base is a little different, as this is the base you can over run. I will agree that the close play discussed (where runner passed base without touching, and ball then being caught by F3 and on base) is a grey area, but again as he explained it, who touched the base first? If this is wrong then post verification. Just relating what I was told.

The reason you signal safe instead of no signal at all is that it is up to the defense to make sure the base was properly touched and if not, to properly appeal. To not make any call would signal to the defense that the B/R missed the base. That qualifies as coaching. The only time you don't signal safe is on a play at home plate where the runner misses home.

[UmpJM]

BigGuy,

Agree with everything you say, EXCEPT....

On a play at the plate, if the runner is "forced" to home, I think the proper mechanic is to signal "SAFE!" - as you would at the play at first.

If he is NOT forced (and must himself be tagged), then I believe the proper mechanic is to make no signal.

So, it's not that it's at home, it whether or not he must be tagged.

JM

[DG]

I will point out situation 1 in the BRD, simply because it seems to relate. EXCEPT: If the action is continuing and the tagged base is a "force" base, the defense makes the appeal merely be "stepping on the missed base".

This appears to be unique to FED, and thus the entry in BRD. And your minor league guy appears to be interpreting opposite from OBR, so be careful who you listen to.

[johnnyg08]

Also, make sure you're asking the right question...I work in a profession where on a consistent basis, my customers ask the wrong question, receive the right answer to the question that they thought they asked. So maybe your "source" gave you the right answer, but maybe you asking the wrong question?