85% missed this one

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by lawump

He said that is true.

Meaning, that if the ball is touched by a fielder and then dropped, the runner is not liable to be put out for failing to re-touch. It is the act of the fielder making a legal catch that imposes upon the runner the requirement to retouch his base.

I agree that the question is worded poorly, however, sometimes we read too much into it. The ball was not dropped it was ALREADY CAUGHT Here is the question again

If a fair batted ball is caught, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder.

The ball has been caught - Premise one

Now read the second part a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder

Bad wording I agree because as others mentioned the word "touched" should have been used not caught because the ball was Already caught.

Bad wording but Sometimes I think we are all guilty of reading too much into it.

There are 100 questions and you can pass with an 85. it's inevitable that a few of them are "shaky" but there is "wiggle room" to pass the test. Not all 100 questions are written this way.

Pete Booth

[johnnyg08]

I don't think it's BS question at all...the rule doesn't say caught, it says touched...don't put your own words into the question and you'd get it right. 85% getting it wrong is a little scary...

I think the test should remain open book...isn't the objective to go through the rule book and learn the rules...that's the objective...not who can memorize the rules.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by lawump

He said look at the meat of the question: "a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder".

He said that is true.

When told by another association member that the answer is "false" because a runner must touch a base after the ball has been TOUCHED by a fielder, he said, "that's not what the question is asking. A runner does not have to re-touch his base after it is touched, he only has to re-touch if it is caught. Meaning, that if the ball is touched by a fielder and then dropped, the runner is not liable to be put out for failing to re-touch. It is the act of the fielder making a legal catch that imposes upon the runner the requirement to retouch his base.

"Thus, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder is true, because if the fielder does not catch the ball there cannot be a requirement to retouch, period."

What he said makes sense, except he did not analyze the entire question. It says "If a fair batted ball is caught, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder."

All the arguing about what happened if the fielder touches the ball but doesn't catch it does not matter as the question clearly states that the ball was caught.

The question has 2 parts:

1. If a fair batted ball is caught
2. the runner shall retouch his base after the ball is caught.

One has to look at both parts in order to understand the question. The guy in your association only looked at the second part.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by lawump

As one member in our association argued in defense of his "true" answer (and he argued a lot more eloquently than I can write):

He said look at the meat of the question: "a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder".

He said that is true.

When told by another association member that the answer is "false" because a runner must touch a base after the ball has been TOUCHED by a fielder, he said, "that's not what the question is asking. A runner does not have to re-touch his base after it is touched, he only has to re-touch if it is caught. Meaning, that if the ball is touched by a fielder and then dropped, the runner is not liable to be put out for failing to re-touch. It is the act of the fielder making a legal catch that imposes upon the runner the requirement to retouch his base.

"Thus, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder is true, because if the fielder does not catch the ball there cannot be a requirement to retouch, period."

However, I also see the other side. The question says "AFTER the batted ball has been caught..." and that IS false if you look at it from the point of view that the runner does not have to wait on the bag until, as JM points out, the fielder completes his catch with a voluntary release.

This is a BS question. As I said, 85% of our association got it wrong. Despite that, our association had the highest average grade of any association in the Palmetto State with an average score of 92 (we have 50+ members)...so, some of our guys know how to take this test (but apparently not this question).

Oh well.

Show him 8-2-4. It's pretty straight forward. The test is not worded lilke the book, making the test statement incorrect.

LDUB is right, he's only debating half of the statement.

Originally Posted by lawump

As one member in our association argued in defense of his "true" answer (and he argued a lot more eloquently than I can write):

He said look at the meat of the question: "a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder".

He said that is true.

When told by another association member that the answer is "false" because a runner must touch a base after the ball has been TOUCHED by a fielder, he said, "that's not what the question is asking. A runner does not have to re-touch his base after it is touched, he only has to re-touch if it is caught. Meaning, that if the ball is touched by a fielder and then dropped, the runner is not liable to be put out for failing to re-touch. It is the act of the fielder making a legal catch that imposes upon the runner the requirement to retouch his base.

"Thus, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder is true, because if the fielder does not catch the ball there cannot be a requirement to retouch, period."

However, I also see the other side. The question says "AFTER the batted ball has been caught..." and that IS false if you look at it from the point of view that the runner does not have to wait on the bag until, as JM points out, the fielder completes his catch with a voluntary release.

This is a BS question. As I said, 85% of our association got it wrong. Despite that, our association had the highest average grade of any association in the Palmetto State with an average score of 92 (we have 50+ members)...so, some of our guys know how to take this test (but apparently not this question).

Oh well.

Half of the questions on the test are based on a direct quotation of the rule. This is about as straight forward a question as possible. For anybody to suggest this question is True better go back and read the entire rule book. The basic reason the answer is false is that caught only describes the final result, not the method to the final result. If the guy bobbles it 10 times before finally securing it for a catch, a runner tagging up from first could probably make it around the bases by the time the fielder finally secures it and meeting the requirements for a catch. If you say catch is the requirement, a fielder could bobble the ball all the way into the infield and a runner could never advance. That's why they write the questions the way they do - to make sure you read and understand the question and apply the rules properly.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

These are not questions. These are true/false statements. If they were questions they would have a question mark at the end of the sentence.

Jesus, Alou...........

It's called a test question regardless. And it's still a poor way to test true working knowledge.

Rita

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by Rita C

It's called a test question regardless. And it's still a poor way to test true working knowledge.

Rita

Which is ultimately the point. Fed tests don't.

[etn_ump]

Originally Posted by lawump

85% of our membership missed this True/False question on the Fed Test:

If a fair batted ball is caught, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder.

The 85% said "true".

What do you all think?

What if it's a ground ball? You never said it was a fly ball.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by etn_ump

What if it's a ground ball? You never said it was a fly ball.

"Catch" implies that the ball was both batted and airbourne. Read the definition of "catch" (2-9-1).

[SAump]

Originally Posted by lawump

85% of our membership missed this True/False question on the Fed Test:

If a fair batted ball is caught, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder.

The 85% said "true".

What do you all think?

Option A: Runner shall re-touch his base after fielder catches the ball. True
Option B: Runner may leave his base the instant fielder first touches the ball. True

OP discusses option A, not option B, answer is true as defined in OBR 7.08D.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by SAump

Option A: Runner shall re-touch his base after fielder catches the ball. True
Option B: Runner may leave his base the instant fielder first touches the ball. True

OP discusses option A, not option B, answer is true as defined in OBR 7.08D.

My question to you SAump...have you ever played baseball...I don't care how the glove was designed...the first touch versus "catch" rule is there for a very good reason.

Think about it...if it truly was a "catch" rule, coaches would be coaching thier kids to bobble the ball all the way into the infield to prevent any type of tag-up by the offense...that's why the rule is there...to protect the integrity of the game...and probably a few other reasons

[SAump]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

My question to you SAump...have you ever played baseball...I don't care how the glove was designed...the first touch versus "catch" rule is there for a very good reason.

Think about it...if it truly was a "catch" rule, coaches would be coaching thier kids to bobble the ball all the way into the infield to prevent any type of tag-up by the offense...that's why the rule is there...to protect the integrity of the game...and probably a few other reasons

What if first touch is a catch, ie. secure possession?

Does the FED question and rule 8-4-2 imply that a catch is not a secure grip of the baseball upon first touch? Think about it. A catch is not a catch...

As for the rest of your logic, balderdash.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by lawump

85% of our membership missed this True/False question on the Fed Test:

If a fair batted ball is caught, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder.

The 85% said "true".

What do you all think?

While I have probably been as guilty as anyone in terms of "bashing" the FED test (and, by implication, those responsible for producing it), I would like to offer the following....

Writing an effective test is a difficult thing to do.

In my opinion, both the scope (breadth of material addressed, diversity and size of the test-taking population, administrive requirements) and purpose(es) of the FED Part 1 Baseball test increase the degree of difficulty. While I don't "know" this to be the case, I believe that the purposes of the FED exam include trying to insure a minimum level of rules competency among FED-licensed officials, encouraging officials to read/review the published rules materials, and calling attention to the rules which have been revised since the previous year.

While it is easy to find flaws, all in all, I believe they do a decent job of achieving their aims.

On to the question at hand - specifically, Q83.

It seems that the primary objection to this question is that a person could know the rule (that a runner may meet his retouch obligation as soon as the first fielder makes the first touch of the ball, rather than having to wait until a legal catch is "proved") and still answer the question incorrectly.

I would agree.

lawump asserted that 85% of the members of his association answered the question incorrectly. I would be willing to bet that at least half of that 85% understood the rule. (Of course, I believe that lawump is from the Palmetto State, where they still have umps call runners out for appealable baserunning infractions without appeal - so I might be optimistic with that estimate... )

On the other hand, if you DON'T know the rule (that the runner may leave on the first touch), you will ALWAYS answer this question incorrectly. So, it's possible that 42.5% of lawump's assoc. didn't understand this point in the rules.

In some ways, this question is testing the person's test-taking skills in addition to his rules knowledge. If you actually go and read the rule, the test answer becomes obvious.

Now I don't believe test-taking skills contribute in any way to an umpire's competency. However, I believe an in-depth understanding of the rules and their application, even some things that are kind of "technical", does contribute to an umpire's overall competency.

If you can't pass this test, you probably shouldn't be umpiring.

If it upsets you to get a question marked wrong, well, then RTFM. ALL the answers are in the book(s), and it's an "open book" test. A couple of "discrepancies" in the answer key seem to appear every year. Mildly annoying, but it's not worth worrying about.

Those are my thoughts.

JM

[lawump]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

While I have probably been as guilty as anyone in terms of "bashing" the FED test (and, by implication, those responsible for producing it), I would like to offer the following....

Writing an effective test is a difficult thing to do.

In my opinion, both the scope (breadth of material addressed, diversity and size of the test-taking population, administrive requirements) and purpose(es) of the FED Part 1 Baseball test increase the degree of difficulty. While I don't "know" this to be the case, I believe that the purposes of the FED exam include trying to insure a minimum level of rules competency among FED-licensed officials, encouraging officials to read/review the published rules materials, and calling attention to the rules which have been revised since the previous year.

While it is easy to find flaws, all in all, I believe they do a decent job of achieving their aims.

On to the question at hand - specifically, Q83.

It seems that the primary objection to this question is that a person could know the rule (that a runner may meet his retouch obligation as soon as the first fielder makes the first touch of the ball, rather than having to wait until a legal catch is "proved") and still answer the question incorrectly.

I would agree.

lawump asserted that 85% of the members of his association answered the question incorrectly. I would be willing to bet that at least half of that 85% understood the rule. (Of course, I believe that lawump is from the Palmetto State, where they still have umps call runners out for appealable baserunning infractions without appeal - so I might be optimistic with that estimate... )

On the other hand, if you DON'T know the rule (that the runner may leave on the first touch), you will ALWAYS answer this question incorrectly. So, it's possible that 42.5% of lawump's assoc. didn't understand this point in the rules.

In some ways, this question is testing the person's test-taking skills in addition to his rules knowledge. If you actually go and read the rule, the test answer becomes obvious.

Now I don't believe test-taking skills contribute in any way to an umpire's competency. However, I believe an in-depth understanding of the rules and their application, even some things that are kind of "technical", does contribute to an umpire's overall competency.

If you can't pass this test, you probably shouldn't be umpiring.

If it upsets you to get a question marked wrong, well, then RTFM. ALL the answers are in the book(s), and it's an "open book" test. A couple of "discrepancies" in the answer key seem to appear every year. Mildly annoying, but it's not worth worrying about.

Those are my thoughts.

JM

Couple of brief thoughts:

More than 1/2 of the 85% that missed this question know this rule. We had a bunch of Division 1 umpires missing this...and they all know it.

Our test is "closed book".

As you implired, for the vast majority, this was an "annoyance" as our association's average score was 92...by far, the highest in SC.

And yes, we still do not have "appeals" in South Carolina high school baseball. (Well, except for checked swings that were adjudged to be a ball by the plate umpire.).

As a result, I'm still waiting for this following play to happen to one of us (SC umpires) in a game:

R1, hit-and-run, BR smokes it to the gap in right-center. R1 puts his head down and is well on his way to third...when F8 makes an unbelievable catch. F8 then fires to F3 to double-off R1, only with F8's adrenaline flowing after the great catch, he sails the throw into DBT. At the moment the ball goes into DBT, R1 is between second and third.

If you read and understand FED Rule 8...and then realize that we have no appeal play in SC...you will understand the craphouse that the umpires in this game are going to have.

It will happen someday, sometime. It has happened to several of our association members in non-high school games....eventually it will happen in high school.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

In my opinion, both the scope (breadth of material addressed, diversity and size of the test-taking population, administrive requirements) and purpose(es) of the FED Part 1 Baseball test increase the degree of difficulty. While I don't "know" this to be the case, I believe that the purposes of the FED exam include trying to insure a minimum level of rules competency among FED-licensed officials, encouraging officials to read/review the published rules materials, and calling attention to the rules which have been revised since the previous year.

While it is easy to find flaws, all in all, I believe they do a decent job of achieving their aims.

Don't know what the aims are of your local FED org but in Atlanta it's get some fukkers on the field. The FED test is open book, test answers in hand.