Church vs State

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SAump

I ask that you remain calm and reasonable and hear my question before you slam "the door" back in my face. I bring this question up before a group of umpires for discussion. I apologize if this encroachment upon your civil liberties causes any personal discomfort.

A wealthy televangelist owns a very large privately funded school. He doesn't believe it is fair that his students compete in the same "league" with much smaller private schools in the local area. They win their division in every sport every year. Sometimes, even the JV squad manages to take 2nd place. There are other large private schools much further away but travel restrictions prevent those schools from competing outside of state competition.

This wealthy minister is suing the state of Texas for equal protection under the law. The state of Texas has always practiced a sort of seperation between church and state {eg. abolish school prayer}. In high school, there has always been a distinct seperation between private and public school systems with two distinct governing bodies set up for high school athletics.
The minsters question is simple. Why shouldn't his school be allowed to play in the "UIL" which controls high school athletics for public school systems. After all, those parents who choose to send their children to private school are also paying taxes to support the same public school system which denies them equal access.

How should the high court decide?

I cannot speak for every state, but in the four states that I have officiated H.S. basketball (Ohio, Michigan, Florida, and California) there is no seperation of public and private schools. I also know that there is no seperation in the following states, because I have friends that officiate in them: Indiana, Kentucky, Tenneessee, Connecticut, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, New Jersey, Mass., Vermont, and Maine.

I knew that private schools, particularly Catholic schools, can have some very powerful programs in some sports. For instance, our sons' swim for Toledo (Ohio) Start H.S. and the swimming secionals are today. Toledo St. Francis de Sales H.S. is going for its 42nd or 43rd (I cannot remember which) straight sectional championship. But that is life.

I feeling is if that the school has the money, let him in.

MTD, Sr.

[ManInBlue]

In MS thet school systems are separate. Private schools will play public schools sometimes, just to have a game. They do not play very often. The private schools are small and teh "gene pool" is limited. The bulk (no pun intended) of the students are in public school. There are some exceptions around Jackson and up towards Memphis. However, the systems are separate to the best of my knowledge.

This is my take on any state. If the schools are separate, they ALL should be separate. If you let this school in or that one in, you are showing favoritism to a school b/c they have lots of $$. That's not fair to the other schools that may be smaller or have less funds available. If you let one in, let them all in. If you choose to have them separate, tehy all should be separate. In your case, maybe the state could consider eliminating the separation and have "everyone play everyone." But the question is this: How do the other private schools feel about it?

[GarthB]

In Washington all accredited schools, whether public or private, may belong to the WIAA and compete in common leagues and districts.

Many of the private schools "play-up", that is, althought they may be "2A" in size, they belong to higher bracketed leagues. Locally, Gonzaga Prep, 2A in size, competes at the 4A level and makes it to the state tournament in football quite often.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by GarthB

In Washington all acredited schools, whether public or private, may belong to the WIAA and compete in common leagues and districts.

Many of the private schools "play-up", that is, althought they may be "2A" in size, they belong to higher bracketed leagues. Locally, Gonzaga Prep, 2A in size, competes at the 4A level and makes it to the state tournament in football quite often.

Same here in PA. The private schools usually play quad A and are in the states every year since they can basically recruit from all other school districts.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Same here in PA. The private schools usually play quad A and are in the states every year since they can basically recruit from all other school districts.

Recruiting is prohibited by the WIAA for both public and private schools, HOWEVER, we have seen a promising freshman quarterback at a public school suddenly get religion by his sophomore year.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by GarthB

In Washington all accredited schools, whether public or private, may belong to the WIAA and compete in common leagues and districts.

Many of the private schools "play-up", that is, althought they may be "2A" in size, they belong to higher bracketed leagues. Locally, Gonzaga Prep, 2A in size, competes at the 4A level and makes it to the state tournament in football quite often.

In Alabama, we have two individual Associations, the AHSAA, made up primarily of public schools, with some private school participation, and the
AISA, made up of independent schools. Private schools that participate in sports under the auspices of AHSAA must play up by two classifications over their actual student body size. I assume this was done to
"level" the playing field. This past season, the 5A football Championship was contested between Briarwod Christian (Birmingham) and St. Paul's (Mobile),
both private schools.

[Lawrence.Dorsey]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I cannot speak for every state, but in the four states that I have officiated H.S. basketball (Ohio, Michigan, Florida, and California) there is no seperation of public and private schools. I also know that there is no seperation in the following states, because I have friends that officiate in them: Indiana, Kentucky, Tenneessee, Connecticut, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, New Jersey, Mass., Vermont, and Maine.

I knew that private schools, particularly Catholic schools, can have some very powerful programs in some sports. For instance, our sons' swim for Toledo (Ohio) Start H.S. and the swimming secionals are today. Toledo St. Francis de Sales H.S. is going for its 42nd or 43rd (I cannot remember which) straight sectional championship. But that is life.

I feeling is if that the school has the money, let him in.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

I'll have to make a correction here regarding NC. There separate governing bodies for the public and private schools here in NC. I've listed the web links to the two of them. I know of only one private school, Charlotte Catholic, that belongs to the public school association. It is is a large private school and is able to compete with the public schools in all sports including football. Public schools and private schools do play each other in holiday tournaments but I don't think they ever play each other during the regular season (I can't be completely sure on that one). However, they do not compete (with the exception of Charlotte Catholic) in the playoffs. There are separate playoffs for public and private schools.


Lawrence

Public Schools- www.nchsaa.org
Private Schools- www.ncisaa.org

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Lawrence.Dorsey

Mark,

I'll have to make a correction here regarding NC. There separate governing bodies for the public and private schools here in NC. I've listed the web links to the two of them. I know of only one private school, Charlotte Catholic, that belongs to the public school association. It is is a large private school and is able to compete with the public schools in all sports including football. Public schools and private schools do play each other in holiday tournaments but I don't think they ever play each other during the regular season (I can't be completely sure on that one). However, they do not compete (with the exception of Charlotte Catholic) in the playoffs. There are separate playoffs for public and private schools.


Lawrence

Public Schools- www.nchsaa.org
Private Schools- www.ncisaa.org

Lawrence:

Thanks, I stand corrected. I got the impression that the schools were not seperated due to conversations with my friends in North Carolina.

MTD, Sr.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Lawrence.Dorsey

Mark,

I'll have to make a correction here regarding NC. There separate governing bodies for the public and private schools here in NC. I've listed the web links to the two of them. I know of only one private school, Charlotte Catholic, that belongs to the public school association. It is is a large private school and is able to compete with the public schools in all sports including football. Public schools and private schools do play each other in holiday tournaments but I don't think they ever play each other during the regular season (I can't be completely sure on that one). However, they do not compete (with the exception of Charlotte Catholic) in the playoffs. There are separate playoffs for public and private schools.


Lawrence

Public Schools- www.nchsaa.org
Private Schools- www.ncisaa.org

Independent schools in NC can choose to join NCHSAA or NCISAA. Cardinal Gibbons in Raleigh is another that has chosen to be a member of NCHSAA. They play at the 2A level. I'm sure there are others.

[Lawrence.Dorsey]

DG,

I didn't know that Gibbons had joined also. Makes sense, they are a large Catholic high school as well. If you consider the charter(such as Gray Stone Day here in Stanly Co.) and special schools (such as the 2 schools for the deaf) as public, then Gibbons and Charlotte Catholic are the only 2 private schools I could find that are members of the NCHSAA. You are right that private schools CAN join NCHSAA, but in almost all cases they choose to join NCISAA.

Lawrence

[SAump]

Texas is believed to be one of three states in which private schools typically are not allowed to compete with public schools in statewide extracurricular organizations.

Source: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/sta...e.35bc767.html
Provides more detail than I care to state and perhaps more useful to interested parties here who may follow the case.

Cornerstone filed the suit in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Texas.

Source: http://www.christianpost.com/article...tic_League.htm
The media only reports what took place. The initial court decision favored the UIL. No further info on appeal status.

Admission of error in OP. I said it was a large school. Facts from article cited above lead me to believe it is actually a smaller private school and has a less successful TAPPS athletic program than OP may indicate.

UIL magnate schools attract students from across nearby district boundaries. Some of the state's most successful high school programs fail to mention star players moving into the district during the eighth grade.

UIL spokesman, JW Rutledge, coached at successful 5A Judson HS. Middle school teams played under the guise of larger high school "farm" systems. JW fought repeated attempts to build another public high school in his own district. Judson swelled to over 4,000 students during his tenure as football coach. A new high school was approved after he resigned as football coach. Why does he fear competiton from smaller private schools?

[lawump]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I cannot speak for every state, but in the four states that I have officiated H.S. basketball (Ohio, Michigan, Florida, and California) there is no seperation of public and private schools. I also know that there is no seperation in the following states, because I have friends that officiate in them: Indiana, Kentucky, Tenneessee, Connecticut, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, New Jersey, Mass., Vermont, and Maine.

I knew that private schools, particularly Catholic schools, can have some very powerful programs in some sports. For instance, our sons' swim for Toledo (Ohio) Start H.S. and the swimming secionals are today. Toledo St. Francis de Sales H.S. is going for its 42nd or 43rd (I cannot remember which) straight sectional championship. But that is life.

I feeling is if that the school has the money, let him in.

MTD, Sr.

Just to clarify...South Carolina has two systems. Private schools are allowed to join the South Carolina High School League (which every public school belongs to) if they want...however only three have choosen to do so. (The last time I looked).

The vast majority of private schools in South Carolina belong to SCISAA (South Carolina Independent Schools Athletic Association). Amazingly (sarcasm alert), a number (but not all) of the schools belonging to SCISAA were founded in 1969. Which (surprise, surprise) was the year South Carolina public schools (and athletics) finally became de-segregated. That's right South Carolina fought Brown vs. Board of Education for 15 years...even though Brown vs. Board of Education was a South Carolina case.

One of the private schools that belongs to the public school league, Bishop England, (catholic schoool in Charleston) has won a TON of championships in virtually everything but football. It has created a lot of controversy in that public school coaches complain that it is unfair because Bishop England can admit students from anywhere.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by lawump

...even though Brown vs. Board of Education was a South Carolina case.

Uh, no, it wasn't. It was from Topeka, KS.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by lawump

Just to clarify...South Carolina has two systems. Private schools are allowed to join the South Carolina High School League (which every public school belongs to) if they want...however only three have choosen to do so. (The last time I looked).

The vast majority of private schools in South Carolina belong to SCISAA (South Carolina Independent Schools Athletic Association). Amazingly (sarcasm alert), a number (but not all) of the schools belonging to SCISAA were founded in 1969. Which (surprise, surprise) was the year South Carolina public schools (and athletics) finally became de-segregated. That's right South Carolina fought Brown vs. Board of Education for 15 years...even though Brown vs. Board of Education was a South Carolina case.

One of the private schools that belongs to the public school league, Bishop England, (catholic schoool in Charleston) has won a TON of championships in virtually everything but football. It has created a lot of controversy in that public school coaches complain that it is unfair because Bishop England can admit students from anywhere.

And along those lines, MN has open enrollment--any student can enroll in any secondary school, assuming the school has available room.

[lawump]

I will add my two cents of legal thought without having read any pleadings or the trial judge's order:

My two cents are this: I wouldn't immediately laught at the religious school's complaint. There is a pretty well known (in Constitutional Law Circles) case that involved high school athletics. It is known as the Brentwood Academy case.

In that case, Brentwood Academy (a private school) sued the Tennessee high school association (I don't recall its official name) because the Tennessee association had put the Academy on probation and barred them from the state football playoffs (as I recall) for illegally recruiting 8th graders.

Brentwood Academy sued alleging that the Association had violated their First Amendment Right to Free Speech. In order to win, Brentwood had to first prove that the Association was a "state actor". The reason they had to prove that is because a "private actor" (i.e. a non-governmental entity) can not violate anyone's first amendment rights. A state actor, however, can violate one's first amendment right (as the first amendment has been applied to the state's through the fourteenth amendment's due process clause).

Anyways, to the surprise of many, the US Supreme Court held that the Tennessee Association WAS a state actor, and thus said Brentwood Academy's suit could go forward (the Supreme Court sent the case back to the federal district court for a trial to see if the Association did, in fact, violate the Academy's First Amendment Rights).

This was a surprise because the US S.Ct. had previously held that the NCAA was NOT a state actor, but rather a private organization. But here, however, the Court said (among other things) that the Tennessee Association's membership was comprised of 86% public schools, that those schools used public money (taxes) to pay their membership dues to the association and that state employees (i.e. principals and superintendents) ran the Association. Thus the Association was a "state actor".

(As an aside: Years later...the Tennessee Association was found not to have violated Brentwood's 1st amendment right.) However, this case was a major case in expanding who and what is a "state actor".

Thus, to bring this home, while I don't know the merits of the Texas' religious school's claim that its equal protection rights were violated...I wouldn't laugh this case off in that I have no doubt that the Texas Association is a "state actor" subject to this lawsuit.

This is definitely a case I'll be on the lookout for if it is, in fact, appealed.

Does anyone know if this case was brought in State Court or Federal Court? (And it could be either...under our US Constitution State Courts are competent to adjudicate federal claims.)