In 25 words . . .

Originally Posted by Tim C

(i.e. right foot -- pivot foot -- takes a quick step towards third base and F1 turns quickly and throws to first).

Under NFHS Rules explain to me why this is not a BALK.

Regards,

This to me appears to be a move with the pivot foot first. Indeed, if he is doing a jump turn, that is a different story, because both feet are supposedly leaving the ground at the same time. In what was described, the pivot foot is stepping towards third base. This is deceptive. His NON-PIVOT foot must step directly towards a base, not his pivot foot.

I don't see where the confusion is. It is a freaking balk the way it is described.

Crap, and now I just caught the "why it is NOT a balk". I have nothing. I would balk that all day.

[UmpJM]

rei,

Have you seen this, from the MLBUM:

(i) It is legal for a right-handed pitcher to begin a pick-off move to first base by first moving his foot in the direction of third base provided that he makes a legal step toward first base with the non-pivot foot before throwing there and provided that the move is continuous and without interruption. A pitcher who makes such a pick-off move is considered to be in contact with the rubber when he makes his throw to first base.

or this, from J/R:

Following are two steps that are legal.

A. "Jab" Step (of the pivot foot): In cases of a right-handed pitcher throwing to first, or a left-handed pitcher throwing to third, or any pitcher throwing to second, a pitcher can take a "jab" or "stutter" step with his pivot foot before stepping to the base with his free foot. ....

It's legal. If you balked it all day, you would be wrong (and protestable) all day.

JM

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

rei,

Have you seen this, from the MLBUM:



or this, from J/R:



It's legal. If you balked it all day, you would be wrong (and protestable) all day.

JM

I see. So what pages in the NCAA and NFHS rule books did you get these out of?

[UmpJM]

rei,

The NCAA and NFHS rule books (not to mention the OBR) do not say anything about the "Jab Step" move. The J/R quote above is from the "rule Differences Edition", which diligently notes differences between OBR and NCAA. There is no difference noted.

This is the most authoritative opinion I have been able to find on the subject.

Have you got anything other than your (mistaken) interpretation that it is illegal?

JM

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

rei,

The NCAA and NFHS rule books (not to mention the OBR) do not say anything about the "Jab Step" move. The J/R quote above is from the "rule Differences Edition", which diligently notes differences between OBR and NCAA. There is no difference noted.

This is the most authoritative opinion I have been able to find on the subject.

Have you got anything other than your (mistaken) interpretation that it is illegal?

JM

For FED, I believe you should review the balk rule before you claim I am "mistaken".

[UmpJM]

rei,

Been there, done that. Of course, reviewing the OBR balk rules could also lead one to the erroneous conclusion that a "jab step" move is illegal.

BTW, are you in Tee's association?

JM

[Tim C]

This is a great conversation.

Yes, I know Rei quite well. We work together once or twice a year. Rei also was the plate umpire for the State Championship game of Oregon's largest school classification this past spring.

Rei is also a member of the college association and this is where this discussion started. I was with three members of the college group Wednesday night and our conversation came around to this specific issue.

One of the leading college umpires in this small group said that he would balk the "jab step" EVERY TIME!

Now Rei chimes in with the same feeling.

This is why I asked the question and am totally confused.

(Note: I have no idea what SAUmp is even saying in his "rising fastball" post -- facts are still facts, no matter what those words mean.)

Regards,

[SAump]

Old rules limited the pitcher in the set position to stand facing the batter with the entire pivot foot on, or in front of, and in contact with, and not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot in front the pitcher's plate. Even as stiff as the old rules were, the jab step and jump turn were utilized by pitchers all over the country. There were never any balks called. IOW, I never heard NCAA umpire associations discuss the illegality of this practice prior this post. But now I understand Papa C's position regarding umpires posting on the internet and his decision not to participate.

From what I understand, this same rule has been recently modified to allow the pitcher to stand off the end of the plate while in contact with part of the pivot foot and to lift the restriction placed on the other free foot. I think this was part of the MLB decision to tighten the outer strike zone and a compromise to allow the pitcher an angle toward the plate. So my question is, when the RHP initiates his jab step to 3B, doesn't it actually land in a position that could also be utilized by the other free foot of a lefty standing on the 3B edge of the pitcher's plate?
---------------
I wouldn't call a balk on RHP for placing his pivot foot in the same location a lefty would utilize in the set position. {24}

or

You called the balk. Go explain it to the coach now and see if he accepts your rationale or leaves his opinion on the field. {25}

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SAump

Call the balk. Accept the protest. It's your ASZ on the line. Go ahead and see what the protest committee tells you and bet your last paycheck on it too.

Last time I looked at a map, San Antonio is not annexed from the state of Texas. Texas does not allow protests in FED.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by rei

This to me appears to be a move with the pivot foot first. Indeed, if he is doing a jump turn, that is a different story, because both feet are supposedly leaving the ground at the same time. In what was described, the pivot foot is stepping towards third base. This is deceptive. His NON-PIVOT foot must step directly towards a base, not his pivot foot.

I don't see where the confusion is. It is a freaking balk the way it is described.

IMO, this is the only quasi-valid argument that the jab step is a balk in FED, and I don't buy it. The disengaging stuff is irrelevant, because F1 is not disengaged in either move.

In both the jump and jab step moves, the free foot moves toward 1st, and the pivot foot moves toward 3rd. The only arguable difference is, in the jump step, both feet are moved simultaneously, while in the jab step, the pivot foot leads by a fraction of a second. I can't see how the jab step is deceptive if the jump step is not. They are the same, save for (maybe) a fraction of a second difference in timing. FED does not say that the jump step entails simultaneous movement of the feet, nor does it say that the free foot must lead, only that F1 step towards 1st with the non-pivot foot while throwing there. What if F1 lifted both feet in a jump turn, but landed on his pivot foot a fraction of a second before stepping towards 1st with his free foot. Is that a balk? I don't think so.

The choices:

A. The rules don't specifically allow it, so it's a balk.
B. The rules don't specifically prohibit it, so it's not a balk.

I'll choose B.

[PeteBooth]

The actual choice is this:

How does one's association call it.

Example;

In FED, there is the "gorilla" balk and years ago F1 could not check a runner.

There were some associations who would not call this "technicality" a balk hence no call was made. Same with the Gorilla Balk.

Therefore the REAL answer is What is the concenses in the association you work for.

Pete Booth

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The actual choice is this:

How does one's association call it.

Example;

In FED, there is the "gorilla" balk and years ago F1 could not check a runner.

There were some associations who would not call this "technicality" a balk hence no call was made. Same with the Gorilla Balk.

Therefore the REAL answer is What is the concenses in the association you work for.

Pete Booth

I'm not familiar with the "gorilla balk" or "check a runner" terminology. Could you enlighten me?

My association goes by what our state interpreter says, not by consensus. Until he tells us the jab step is a balk, I ain't calling it. Our meeting with the interpreter is Feb. 2. I will bring up the subject and report back here.

[dash_riprock]

If, by "gorilla balk" you meant the pitching hand dangling in front rather than at his side or behind his back, we just prevented that rather than balk it (per our interpreter).

[Tim C]

One more rules set thinks it is OK:

I received an e-mail from Jim Paranto of the NCAA today.

Jim's point is:

"Tim, think about a right handed pitcher during the "fake to third and throw to first" pickoff move. The pivot foot disengages 'forward.'

"The move you described is based along the same logic as this play. Have everyone reread 9-3b (1) (2) (3).

"I hope this answers your question."

Regards,