MLBU - what kind of program would you run

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Yes, and I have heard pro football and basketball officials say that they wish they could have the baseball model.

I have never heard a single football or basketball official yearn for such a system. Not a system that makes you work on the road all the time and not have other income.

Originally Posted by GarthB

In fact, the NFL used NFL Europe much as baseball uses AAA baseball.

This is also inaccurate. NFL Europe was one way they evaluated officials. But most officials that got a shot in the NFL were selected from Division 1 rather than NFL Europe. NFL Europe was usually used to give someone an opportunity and more of a look, but it was not used as a prerequisite for being hired at the NFL. Not even close. Actually Arena Ball is used more than NFL Europe was as an evaluation tool. And now there is no longer NFL Europe. There are some current NFL officials that would work in NFL Europe. Not everyone is able to go away for 3 months in Europe and keep their jobs. Most NFL officials have a job outside of their officiating. Not something you are really allowed to do in the current baseball.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is also inaccurate. NFL Europe was one way they evaluated officials. But most officials that got a shot in the NFL were selected from Division 1 rather than NFL Europe. NFL Europe was usually used to give someone an opportunity and more of a look, but it was not used as a prerequisite for being hired at the NFL.

Peace

Sorry Rut, but what I wrote is indeed accurate. WhenI wrote an article about NFL referee Steve Willson, #29, and spoke with the league office, they stated what I wrote. They sent D-1 officials who they were considering to NFL Europe prior to giving them a shot in "show." They did not go to Europe for three months at a time. They commuted.

From the article:

Steve: There were six Americans and one European. Each crew had a European official. In retrospect, it was great crew. There was Phil Luckett, Curt Dornan, Gary Slaughter, Steve Lindsey, Boris Cheek, me and a guy whose name I can’t pronounce from Finland. All but one made the NFL.

Officiating.com: How did the logistics work; did you fly over for each game or stay for the season?

Steve: Neither. We would leave New York, fly over and arrive in one day. We would work a game the next day then stay in Europe for five days and work another game. Then we’d come home. We would do that twice. A full season for officials was comprised of four games.

Steve did this while still working as a conference official for the PAC-10. He begin his NFL Europe work in 1995 and stayed with it for 4 years. At the end of his fourth season, Jerry Seamens called him and invited him to work in the NFL.

I will take the league statements and that of Steve's as accurate.

The league office also stated that baseball had the best training system going for officials and they wished that somehow they could replicated that system. It was league officials who made this statement, not referees.

You are correct about the Arena Leagues, Arena 1 and Arena 2. With the demise of NFL Europe the league will use the Arena Leagues as they did NFL Europe.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Sorry Rut, but what I wrote is indeed accurate. WhenI wrote an article about NFL referee Steve Willson, #29, and spoke with the league office, they stated what I wrote. They sent D-1 officials who they were considering to NFL Europe prior to giving them a shot in "show." They did not go to Europe for three months at a time. They commuted.

From the article:

Steve: There were six Americans and one European. Each crew had a European official. In retrospect, it was great crew. There was Phil Luckett, Curt Dornan, Gary Slaughter, Steve Lindsey, Boris Cheek, me and a guy whose name I can’t pronounce from Finland. All but one made the NFL.

Officiating.com: How did the logistics work; did you fly over for each game or stay for the season?

Steve: Neither. We would leave New York, fly over and arrive in one day. We would work a game the next day then stay in Europe for five days and work another game. Then we’d come home. We would do that twice. A full season for officials was comprised of four games.

Steve did this while still working as a conference official for the PAC-10. He begin his NFL Europe work in 1995 and stayed with it for 4 years. At the end of his fourth season, Jerry Seamens called him and invited him to work in the NFL.

I will take the league statements and that of Steve's as accurate.

The league office also stated that baseball had the best training system going for officials and they wished that somehow they could replicated that system. It was league officials who made this statement, not referees.

You are correct about the Arena Leagues, Arena 1 and Arena 2. With the demise of NFL Europe the league will use the Arena Leagues as they did NFL Europe.

Garth you are missing the point I was trying to make. I did not say that NFL Europe was not used to hire or evaluate officials. I said that it was by far not the only way they hired officials into the League. It was not at all used like the model of Major League Baseball that if you did not work NFL Europe you could not get an NFL position. Actually in some cases many current staff members worked NFL Europe games. Whether someone from the NFL office likes the MLB model or not does not change that they hire officials straight from D1 ball and will have to do so in similar fashion because there is no NFL Europe anymore. I am sure the NFL would love a similar system, but that is not going to happen anytime soon. And I seriously doubt that the NFL is only going to use Arena Ball as a gauge for what goes on in the NFL when the game is really not completely the same.

I am also not talking about this from what I read. I belong to an association that has 3 current NFL Officials in them and numerous NFL evaluators and one of the most famous NFL Referees in history all come back and evaluate current football officials. I have heard them talk about this in detail and it was never said these officials only got their by working NFL Europe games. And based on what you just posted, that suggest that officials are not even working many games in the first place. So I stand by my statement that NFL Europe is not like Triple A Baseball.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Garth you are missing the point I was trying to make. I did not say that NFL Europe was not used to hire or evaluate officials. I said that it was by far not the only way they hired officials into the League. It was not at all used like the model of Major League Baseball that if you did not work NFL Europe you could not get an NFL position.

Peace

No, I didn't miss your point. It's that your point is incorrect.

According to the NFL League office, for a period of time, all new NFL Officials saw duty in what was later called NFL Europe while they were still calling college ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GarthB

No, I didn't miss your point. It's that your point is incorrect.

According to the NFL League office, for a period of time, all new NFL Officials saw duty in what was later called NFL Europe while they were still calling college ball.

I disagree because I heard this from a current NFL official what they had to do. We are just going to have to disagree on this. My information is more than one interview on a website.

And if you ask me, MLB has the worst system of hiring umpires. They limit their pool of qualified people by requiring people to attend a class that almost eliminates anyone with a job or a family. Then they require people to be away for months from the rest of civilization to work a game that almost no one hears anything about. I have a friend that is in the Minor League System and he is not going to work winter ball in Venezuela until February. Now he does not have children and is not married and the few times he is home he still lives with his parents. Now I know guys that cannot work another sport because their spouse gets mad they are away from home too much and they get to sleep in the same house on a daily basis.

I think the NFL system is more reasonable. I think officials in the NFL are some of the better officials in pro sports. I think the NBA has a more reasonable system because the official being considered can still come home on a regular basis. And the NBA does solicit officials that work the college ranks as well and takes into account someone’s full experiences where MLB does not seemed to care about what you did before you got into their system. And the worst thing is that they never seem to fire a single umpire for anything. MLB Umpires can totally screw up and they still have a job after the end of the season. If you want the best people, use all officials with vastly different backgrounds.

Peace

[mbyron]

It doesn't make sense to "agree to disagree" on a factual question. One of you is wrong (or you're talking past each other, which seems possible).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It doesn't make sense to "agree to disagree" on a factual question. One of you is wrong (or you're talking past each other, which seems possible).

I disagree because the information I have comes from another source and in my opinion a very knowledgably source. And it also came from a person I know personally and how they were given an opportunity. This person has spoken many times about his rise to the NFL as well as 2 other individuals.

And in the bigger picture, it really does not matter because NFL Europe is no longer. So what they used to do is not even relevant anymore. Arena ball is not 7 man mechanics with the similar rules or judgments. I doubt Arena ball (which is owned by the NFL) is going to rely on that game as a prerequisite before you get a job in the NFL. The NFL uses the Arena Leagues as a testing ground in many ways, but I doubt it will have as much wait as the MLB system to hire umpires.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree because I heard this from a current NFL official what they had to do. We are just going to have to disagree on this. My information is more than one interview on a website.

Peace

And mine comes from interviewing several NFL officals and from a wrtitten statement from the NFL office of the supervisor of officials I solicited and received while preparing the article. I'll take that info over a chat any day, Jeff.

And remember, Jeff. This is all addressing a practice that occurred during a point in time. Not today.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GarthB

And mine comes from interviewing several NFL officals and from a wrtitten statement from the NFL office of the supervisor of officials I solicited and received while preparing the article. I'll take that info over a chat any day, Jeff.

And remember, Jeff. This is all addressing a practice that occurred during a point in time. Not today.

Garth, it was not a chat. The official gave a several presentations about their climb to the top. I am not under the impression they were lying to just make a point. And this person was in the NFL during the NFL Europe era.

NFL Europe just stopped this year. It is not like anyone is being hired right now.

Peace