New MLBU mechanic?

[Gee]

I've seen this happen twice in the last two weeks.

This happened on an uncaught third strike where the batter could advance to first. The ball went to the back stop and in the first sitch the batter just stood there watching the catcher retrieve the ball.

The Plate umpire was between the batter and the catcher and he pointed to first base which woke up the batter who then started on his journey. He was thrown out at first but I thought it was inappropriate for the umpire to point and tip off the runner.

The second time was the same although the runner was off to first prior to the point. Is this a new mechanic?

[umpyre007]

Who knows? Maybe someone can shed some light on this? Maybe the PU was appealing a checked swing? However, over the past couple of years I've noticed a few "strange" mechanics occurring with MLB umpires. One would be the announcing of the location of a pitch called a ball; i. e. high, low, outside, inside, etc. This isn't done by all MLB umpires but by a few and runs contradictory to the training many of us at the levels lower than MLB receive. In fact, I know of guys who have been dinged on evaluations for doing exactly this same thing.

U7

[Jay R]

I saw that type of play last night. I can't remember which game. In this situation, the batter had tried to hold back his bat. The umpire pointed at the batter to indicate that he had made an attempt. Is this possibly what you saw?

[Gee]

I'm pretty sure that neither was a checked swing. Secondly, why would a ML catcher appeal while he was going back to the screen to retrieve the ball? Not good mechanics by the catcher.G.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gee
I'm pretty sure that neither was a checked swing. Secondly, why would a ML catcher appeal while he was going back to the screen to retrieve the ball? Not good mechanics by the catcher.G.

Didn't see the play, but umpires are taught to appeal automatically, without waiting to be asked on a droppe-third, check-swing situation.

[ump3]

I think what you saw was not an appeal or check swing, not the umpire pointing the runner to the direction that he should run, but I believe that he was indicating a swinging strike. I've noticed especially Doug Eddings doing this. He does it for third strike, balls just in the dirt, but that don't get away from the catcher. I guess this mechanic is being substituted for the "safe" signal used when a ball is not caught.

[jont]

The correct mechanic in professional baseball on an uncaught third strike is for the plate umpire to point straight out with his right arm to indicate that the ball was not caught. If it is a very close call as to whether or not the catcher caught the ball or if it hit the ground, the plate umpire will usually make a regular "safe" mechanic sign to sell the call. With that being said, the guys in the bigs can basically do what they want, but this is the correct procedure for the rest of pro ball.

With regard to the point about umpires verbalizing where a pitch was: for instance by saying, "ball-that's out," or "ball-that's down." This is acceptable in pro ball. I believe the upside to doing this is to let everyone (ie.the dugout) know where that close pitch was. It shows that the umpire is recognizing it was close, but he knows exactly where that pitch missed and is confident of such. On the other hand, the downside of saying where the pitches missed opens you up to comments from the dugout saying that the ball wasn't "out" or wasn't "in." Obviously, you would only want to do this a few times a game, not on every pitch.

[nickrego]

Our HS association has discussed the growing movement towards looking to the side a pitch was off the plate after calling it a ball. The dugouts can see high or low, but not off the side. This tells them why a ball was called. I personally have not adopted any method of indicating why I called a pitch a ball.

[WindyCityBlue]

Here's the wind-up...and the pitch -

PU: Ball!

Coach in the Dugout: Where was that?

PU: Not over the plate.


I was at Wrigley a couple times this year and clearly heard a couple of those monsters say, "Ball, outside" or "Ball, low" and almost peed my pants. I was with a few guys who have been at it for a long time and we couldn't believe it. How long has Tony Larussa been watching pitches? He should be able to tell how his catcher caught it. Is it below the knee? Whether it's outside or below the knee, what difference does it matter, he called it a ball. I love those coaches that say, "That wasn't low, so it had to be outside." Thanks coach, I hope mensa has you on speed dial for the one's that they can't figure out.

[jumpmaster]

I wonder if this new "fad" of verbalizing pitch location comes out of timing. One of the tricks I have been taught is to see a strike, say "strike" to myself, call it.

I could see, as a teaching tool only, to "call the ball." See it a ball, say "ball, low" to myself, then verbalize it. After doing this for a while it could easily become a habit, albeit a bad one.

Are these guys that are verbalizing the ball call in the bigs, young guys or old dogs?

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
How to handle it... Here's the wind-up...and the pitch -

PU: Ball!
Coach in the Dugout: Where was that?
PU: Not over the plate.

I was at Wrigley a couple times this year and clearly heard a couple of those monsters say, "Ball, outside" or "Ball, low" and almost peed my pants.

Judging by your previous post, I can tell you don't umpire at a high level. First of all, if a manager asks you where a pitch was - you answer the question with a location, NOT a smart a$$ remark.

And as for you almost wetting your pants because of certain styles of MLB umpires, well that's why you PAY for a ticket to get in the game and those guys you make fun of are PAID to work those games. Enjoy being a baseball FAN because I know you're not a baseball umpire.

[Edited by Sal Giaco on Oct 12th, 2004 at 05:48 PM]

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco

Judging by your previous post, I can tell you don't umpire at a high level. First of all, if a manager asks you where a pitch was - you answer the question with a location, NOT a smart a$$ remark.

/snip/

Sorry, Sal:
In my part of the world, as well, "top" umpires are just as likely to use Windy's "S-A-" response [or a variation: "Not in the Zone"]. If the CATCHER asks "was that outside, Blue?", he might get a location response; but we don't owe the Coach an explanation.
"Where was that?" is a form of chirping: arguing judgment calls.

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco

Judging by your previous post, I can tell you don't umpire at a high level. First of all, if a manager asks you where a pitch was - you answer the question with a location, NOT a smart a$$ remark.

And as for you almost wetting your pants because of certain styles of MLB umpires, well that's why you PAY for a ticket to get in the game and those guys you make fun of are PAID to work those games. Enjoy being a baseball FAN because I know you're not a baseball umpire.

[Edited by Sal Giaco on Oct 12th, 2004 at 05:48 PM]

I can't believe that WindBag has not responded to this unwarrented attack. Let me respond for him. I'll try to do my best WindBag immitation as I put this usurper in his place.

Sal,

I've worked games that you only dream about. I've got a decade of minor league experience and another 15 years of NCAA experience on three D1 staffs. I've worked regionals and super regionals and have turned down the CWS in order to give riff raff a chance at the big time.

Joe Brinkman pays me a consulting fee to assist him in his umpiring. I was in the locker room after the Houston/Atlanta game to critique the umpires.

You're definitely a pup if you don't understand that a coach is arguing balls and strikes when he asks where a pitch is. Only a little league umpire answers a coach's question with regards to pitch location with anything other than a smartass response. Which little league do you work in?

You had to edit your post? How bad was it before you edited it?

WindBag

[Sal Giaco]

Bob
Let me clarify something before this gets blown out of proportion.

Scenario:

3rd Inning: Count 1-1

Pitch comes in just off the corner
Umpire: "Ball"
Manager: "Where was that Sal?"
Umpire: "Balls out"
No reply by the manager

How is that considered "Little League" or a manager starting to argue balls and strikes.

Same scenario:
Pitch comes in just off the corner
Umpire: "Ball"
Manager: "Where was that WindBag?"
Umpire: "Not over the plate"
Manager: "No $hit, you called it a ball - was it down or out"?

I think there's better ways to handle a manager on balls and strikes that with a smarta$$ remark to a rather harmless question (ofcourse how he asks the location and how often makes a big difference).

My point is that comments like that are only going to escalate situations and may result in unnecessary ejections. Don't get me wrong, I'm not afraid to run managers/coaches over balls & strikes. However, if I can communicate to players and coaches in a manner that will keep them in the game, I will work towards that rather than coming off as a red a$$.

Furthermore, if you are who you say you are, then why are you o.k. with a person calling MLB umpires "monsters" and slamming them for personal style differences. Talk about unwarranted attacks! I apologize to Windy City if I came off a little harsh but I feel strongly about how umpires communicate on the field. I'll leave it at that. As for umpire resumes, you don't know me but if you want to compare - feel free to email privately at [email protected]

[Edited by Sal Giaco on Oct 13th, 2004 at 07:20 AM]

[mbyron]

Sal, I see your point, but I have to ask: what does a manager hope to accomplish in asking you where the pitch was? He's not pitching, so he doesn't really need to know "where your zone is." I think that concern over this point makes people think that the coach is chirping.

It might be practical and customary as you move up to answer this question out of courtesy. And I'm sure that some coaches ask more than others.

I'm a relative novice to umpiring, and I'd really like to understand what coaches might be aiming at by asking the location of a pitch. Thanks.