Strange appeal play

[jsblanton]

Sitting in bleachers watching a 13, 14, 15 year old baseball game. Basehit to F8. Batter-runner streches single to a double and misses 1st base on his way to 2nd. F8 throws the ball to 1st for the appeal on the missed base. Ball is tipped by F3 and rolls into the dugout. BU called dead ball and gave R1 his award. F3 retrieves the ball and throws it to F1. PU calls batter up and puts ball in play. Defensive coach asked for time, went out to his pitcher and told him he could still appeal the missed base. Conference ends and PU puts ball back in play, F1 stepped off, threw to F3 who tagged 1st base asked for R1 to be called out for missing 1st and BU called him out. I went over all of this in my head and it seemed correct. Any thoughts or comments? Could R1 have re-touched 1st during the dead ball before advancing to his awarded bases and been within the rules while doing so? (Sorry about the long post).

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jsblanton

Sitting in bleachers watching a 13, 14, 15 year old baseball game. Basehit to F8. Batter-runner streches single to a double and misses 1st base on his way to 2nd. F8 throws the ball to 1st for the appeal on the missed base. Ball is tipped by F3 and rolls into the dugout. BU called dead ball and gave R1 his award. F3 retrieves the ball and throws it to F1. PU calls batter up and puts ball in play. Defensive coach asked for time, went out to his pitcher and told him he could still appeal the missed base. Conference ends and PU puts ball back in play, F1 stepped off, threw to F3 who tagged 1st base asked for R1 to be called out for missing 1st and BU called him out. I went over all of this in my head and it seemed correct. Any thoughts or comments? Could R1 have re-touched 1st during the dead ball before advancing to his awarded bases and been within the rules while doing so? (Sorry about the long post).

Since the defense erred in its attempt at an appeal by throwing the ball out of play, they lost their right to appeal on that runner at that base. Had the ball just been thrown out of play in some other fashion than for the appeal, then they could have appealed once the ball was put back in play. Rule 7.10 comments.

Also, once the ball was dead, the runner can't return to a missed base once he has advanced to and touched the next base. Rule 7.10(b)(2).

[DG]

Originally Posted by jsblanton

Sitting in bleachers watching a 13, 14, 15 year old baseball game. Basehit to F8. Batter-runner streches single to a double and misses 1st base on his way to 2nd. F8 throws the ball to 1st for the appeal on the missed base. Ball is tipped by F3 and rolls into the dugout. BU called dead ball and gave R1 his award. F3 retrieves the ball and throws it to F1. PU calls batter up and puts ball in play. Defensive coach asked for time, went out to his pitcher and told him he could still appeal the missed base. Conference ends and PU puts ball back in play, F1 stepped off, threw to F3 who tagged 1st base asked for R1 to be called out for missing 1st and BU called him out. I went over all of this in my head and it seemed correct. Any thoughts or comments? Could R1 have re-touched 1st during the dead ball before advancing to his awarded bases and been within the rules while doing so? (Sorry about the long post).

OBR or FED rules?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Since the defense erred in its attempt at an appeal by throwing the ball out of play, they lost their right to appeal on that runner at that base.

I disagree. The original appeal was part of "continuing action" and doesn't negate the opportunity for a further appeal, even if the ball is thrown out of play.

[Tim C]

I agree with Bob. The way I read the OP the ball being thrown out of play was not part of an appeal.

Regards,

[PeteBooth]

I agree with Bob and Tim. This was part of continuous action hence the defense does not loose it's right to appeal.

Now if F8 threw to F1 and F1 then threw to F3 to appeal the missed base that's a different story because there was a "break" in action.

NOTE: In FED rules even if there was a break in action and F1 threw the ball out of play DURING an appeal, in FED unlike OBR the defense would not loose their right to appeal.

Pete Booth

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree. The original appeal was part of "continuing action" and doesn't negate the opportunity for a further appeal, even if the ball is thrown out of play.

The way I see it, F8 had no other reason to throw the ball to first base other than to appeal a missed base. It isn't like a runner leaving early and trying to throw back behind him for a putout. That would be "continuing action." But in this case, F8 threw the ball solely for the purpose of an appeal, and not any part of the action. The rule gives an example of F1 throwing the ball out of play, but it is not limited to F1. Any player can initiate an appeal, and in this case it was an unmistakable appeal of a missed base. That's my opinion.

[jsblanton]

Sorry, I should have stated. FED Rules.

[DG]

Originally Posted by jsblanton

Sorry, I should have stated. FED Rules.

Throwing the ball out of bounds on an appeal does not negate the right to appeal.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree. The original appeal was part of "continuing action" and doesn't negate the opportunity for a further appeal, even if the ball is thrown out of play.

Bob and Tee are correct. While the center fielder's throw to F3 was technically an "appeal," it is not considered a separate and distinct one; rather, it is part of continuous action. Consequently, any ball thrown out of play curing C. A. has no effect on whether an appeal can subsequently be made.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Bob and Tee are correct. While the center fielder's throw to F3 was technically an "appeal," it is not considered a separate and distinct one; rather, it is part of continuous action. Consequently, any ball thrown out of play curing C. A. has no effect on whether an appeal can subsequently be made.

I will stipulate to "continuous action" in this case if you can tell me one possible reason F8 had for throwing the ball to F3 other than to make an appeal. Was there any other possible play at first base? If the answer is "no," then I see no continuous action in this case. The runner did not "leave early," he missed the base. How can throwing to a base where there is no "action" to be found be considered "continuous?"

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I will stipulate to "continuous action" in this case if you can tell me one possible reason F8 had for throwing the ball to F3 other than to make an appeal.

I don't why he threw, Steve. He's a kid, he might not know why. But how would F8 know he missed the bag at first? There is no indication in the OP that anything verbal was going on at the time.

[UMP25]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
I will stipulate to "continuous action" in this case if you can tell me one possible reason F8 had for throwing the ball to F3 other than to make an appeal. Was there any other possible play at first base? If the answer is "no," then I see no continuous action in this case. The runner did not "leave early," he missed the base. How can throwing to a base where there is no "action" to be found be considered "continuous?"

It is irrelevant whether there is "action" at first base or not, and it is also irrelevant whether he missed the base or left early--both are appeals in the technical sense. However, they're treated a bit differently in terms of allowing appeals when a ball is thrown out of the play. Continuous action (sometimes called "related action" as well) is a term that refers to the action, or everything that occurs, related to the primary play itself. One interesting way to "define" continuous action, so to speak, is how to tell when it's not occurring anymore: continuous action has ended when it would be appropriate to call "time."

IIRC, the J/R manual, which was used at school, has more info on continuous/related action.

[UmpJM]

Steve,

UMP25, Bob Jenkins, and Tim C. have this one right. (Though I might quibble with Tim on his distinction that the ball being thrown out of play was not part of an appeal. Whether or not it was part of an appeal is immaterial to the proper ruling as long as it was part of the "continuous action" of the play during which the baserunning infraction occurred.)

Namely, if the defense throws the ball out of play (i.e. "errs") while attempting a "continuous action" appeal, it does not negate the defense's opportunity to subsequently appeal after the ball is again made live (or while it is still dead under FED rules).

In addition to the J/R treatment referenced by UMP25, the following from the MLBUM discussion of appeals further supports this position (my emphasis).

(3) If the pitcher or any member of the defensive team throws the ball out of play when making an appeal, such act shall be considered an attempted play. No further appeal will be allowed on any runner at any base. (This refers to when an appeal is being made after a definite break in action.)

JM

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

I agree with Bob and Tim.

Concur.