Strange Play

[nine01c]

Here's one a friend of mine had in a game:

R1 and R3, 1 out. Ball is hit to F1 on a short-hop who runs towards R3 to hold him on 3B. R1 advances to and touches 2B. F1 then turns and fires to F3. Ball gets away and is retrieved by backup fielder. BR is safe.BU has called BR SAFE, then realizes there are 2 runners in his view. One is R1 on base. The other,BR who has over-run 1B and is standing a ways up the line beyond 1B in foul territory. In the confusion, R1 takes off towards 2B and is tagged OUT. R3 advances and scores.

Defensive coach argues there should be 3 outs and no run should score. Besides wondering how the heck this happened, how would you rule this play?

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by nine01c
Here's one a friend of mine had in a game:

R1 and R3, 1 out. Ball is hit to F1 on a short-hop who runs towards R3 to hold him on 3B. R1 advances to and touches 2B. F1 then turns and fires to F3. Ball gets away and is retrieved by backup fielder. BR is safe.BU has called BR SAFE, then realizes there are 2 runners in his view. One is R1 on base. The other,BR who has over-run 1B and is standing a ways up the line beyond 1B in foul territory. In the confusion, R1 takes off towards 2B and is tagged OUT. R3 advances and scores.

Defensive coach argues there should be 3 outs and no run should score. Besides wondering how the heck this happened, how would you rule this play?

You're right, 1st question is HUH?? I read R1 advances to & touches 2nd; then somehow ends up back on 1st? BR reaches 1st safely and overruns up the foul line? Then R1 takes off again for 2nd, getting caught and tagged out? Meanwhile, R3, originally held up at 3rd, takes off and scores?

I am presuming that Coach D likes the out on R1, and wants his "bonus" out on BR for "passing" R1?

The short answer I'd give on how to rule is what you saw is what you got.

Long version:
If BR is "beyond 1st in foul territory", he did not attempt to go to 2nd; so even if R1 was standing on 1st at the time BR reached the base, BR has not "passed" the preceeding runner. [BTW, it is more likely that BR reached 1st and then R1 returned; thus ~]

With 2 runners "at" the same base, neither is out until one of 'em gets tagged [or, in this case, 2ndB is tagged to complete the force on R1 - there was another thread recently which explored some of the permutations of this issue]. Since it does not appear that anybody tagged BR, he is safe at 1st and is entitled to return, which it seems he did. Had BR been tagged [with R1 still standing on 1B], then he would have been out, and the force on R1 removed, so no "bonus out" on R1 for being a knucklehead.

Since BR was not tagged and R1 took off [again] for 2nd, he is liable to the fate which, in fact, befell him, and he is out on the tag or force, whichever; BUT no "bonus out" on BR, who is now R1.

R3, who apparently was listening to his base coach, did nothing wrong [that we've been told about], so he still scores; 2 outs, next batter please.

[Edited by cbfoulds on Jul 27th, 2004 at 02:33 AM]

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by nine01c

Here's one a friend of mine had in a game:

R1 and R3, 1 out. Ball is hit to F1 on a short-hop who runs towards R3 to hold him on 3B. R1 advances to and touches 2B. F1 then turns and fires to F3. Ball gets away and is retrieved by backup fielder. BR is safe.BU has called BR SAFE, then realizes there are 2 runners in his view. One is R1 on base. The other,BR who has over-run 1B and is standing a ways up the line beyond 1B in foul territory. In the confusion, R1 takes off towards 2B and is tagged OUT. R3 advances and scores.

Defensive coach argues there should be 3 outs and no run should score. Besides wondering how the heck this happened, how would you rule this play?

Let's stick to the rules:

Since the batter became a runner R1 is FORCED to the next base, meaning 1st base is no longer His/hers.

Now R1 for some strange reason after touching second retreating back towards first base. In that case, The Force is now reinstated.

Here's the applicable rule reference.


OBR 7.08
Any runner is out when_
(e) He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. However, if a following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner must be tagged to be put out. The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance, and if he overslides or overruns the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out. However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;

Therefore, the ruling on this play is:

2 Outs, BR at first base. R3 scores. The BR being up the line in Foul Territory has NOT passed R1, hence the ruling for a passed runner is not applicable.

Pete Booth

[nine01c]

They ended up ruling correctly by calling R1 OUT on the tag, now 2 outs, R3 scores.

As he was describing this play to me, he started to over-analize. He said he should have called BR OUT for "passing" R1, and then R3's advance would have been a time play (did he score before the 3rd OUT, R1 being tagged).

He insisted BR "passed" and I insisted he did not.
I told him he got the play right and luckily didn't apply his "alternate" ruling. That would have turned a mess into a disaster.

[DG]

What Pete said... plus, the BR could not be tagged out if he touced 1B and was down the line returning to 1B, even if R1 was touching 1B.