Pitcher taking signals.

[BigUmp56]

I understand where Garth is coming from and agree with him. If I see a pitcher straddle the rubber and then lean in as if to take signs, I'm balking him for simulating a preliminary motion to pitch without being on the rubber.


Tim.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I understand where Garth is coming from and agree with him. If I see a pitcher straddle the rubber and then lean in as if to take signs, I'm balking him for simulating a preliminary motion to pitch without being on the rubber.


Tim.

Tim:

Under what NFHS Baseball rule would you use to justify your balk call. I just read Rule 6 and nothing in the rules prevents the pitcher from staddling the pitcher's plate and look in to the catcher as long as he is holding the ball in either his pitching hand or his glove.

MTD, Sr.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tim:

Under what NFHS Baseball rule would you use to justify your balk call. I just read Rule 6 and nothing in the rules prevents the pitcher from staddling the pitcher's plate and look in to the catcher as long as he is holding the ball in either his pitching hand or his glove.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

If my judgment tells me that leaning in to take signs is part of a movement naturally associated with his pitch, then the following would apply if he's not on the rubber, would it not?

ARTICLE 5.

It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher's plate, makes any movement naturally associated with his pitch, or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher's plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher's plate without having the ball.

Tim.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Mark,

If my judgment tells me that leaning in to take signs is part of a movement naturally associated with his pitch, then the following would apply if he's not on the rubber, would it not?

ARTICLE 5.

It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher's plate, makes any movement naturally associated with his pitch, or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher's plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher's plate without having the ball.

Tim.

I agree Tim, I am also balking the pitcher and the only thing I can back that up with is a OBR statement "Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner. If there is doubt in the umpire’s mind, the “intent” of the pitcher should govern," but certainly apppropriate here.

"Deceiving the base runner," which is the ONLY intent of this move.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

I agree Tim, I am also balking the pitcher and the only thing I can back that up with is a OBR statement "Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner. If there is doubt in the umpire’s mind, the “intent” of the pitcher should govern," but certainly apppropriate here.

"Deceiving the base runner," which is the ONLY intent of this move.

Hold on. Perhaps you've forgotten the original post. We were talking about a pitcher who took his signs from off the rubber, stepped on the rubber, paused (whether to take another sign, or to simulate that - doesn't matter), and then pitched. How is the "intent of this move" to deceive the baserunner?

I can see stretching the rules you refer to in the case where a pitcher take signs (or simulated it) from off the rubber and uses that to dupe the runner off the base, and then fires to first without having to abide by the rules a pitcher who was ON the rubber would have to abide by. But to balk a pitcher simply for doing something not listed at all in the "it is a balk when..." section, when such action has no effect or intent to deceive the baserunner, is simply OOO, and against every clinic I've ever attended.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Here is J/R's take on this:

Pitchers:

• a) must take signs from the catcher while in contact.
• b) cannot habitually disengage the rubber after taking a sign,
• c) upon disengaging, must separate their hands.

No penalty is mandated or suggested for violation of (a) through (c). Such action is simply prohibited.

This very clearly intends for the pitcher to only take signs while in contact with the rubber, and at no other time.

Also, the following is a balk:

It is a balk when the pitcher:
15......... tries to deceive a runner or the batter by imitating and throwing a pitch while not in contact with the rubber, or by quickly stepping on the rubber and pitching without taking a sign. Such actions constitute an illegal pitch.

Notice that the penalty is for quickly stepping on the rubber and pitching. If the pitcher does not quick pitch the batter, no sign would be required.

Perhaps this stuff about "simulating taking a sign" just means pause to let the batter get reasonably set in the box. That's my take on it.

[LomUmp]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Here is J/R's take on this:

Pitchers:

• a) must take signs from the catcher while in contact.
• b) cannot habitually disengage the rubber after taking a sign,
• c) upon disengaging, must separate their hands.

No penalty is mandated or suggested for violation of (a) through (c). Such action is simply prohibited.

Hey all,

In a), I agree that it's intended purpose is to prevent a quick pitch.

In c), my understanding is that, at this point, the pitcher would already be in the set position, not taking signs from anyone. How many pitchers have you seen take signs with their hands together in the set position?

If there is no penalty, why be concerned?

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Also, the following is a balk:

It is a balk when the pitcher:
15......... tries to deceive a runner or the batter by imitating and throwing a pitch while not in contact with the rubber, or by quickly stepping on the rubber and pitching without taking a sign. Such actions constitute an illegal pitch.

Notice that the penalty is for quickly stepping on the rubber and pitching. If the pitcher does not quick pitch the batter, no sign would be required.

Perhaps this stuff about "simulating taking a sign" just means pause to let the batter get reasonably set in the box. That's my take on it.

The rule quote seems to apply if you know when the sign is given. In the case of the "one pitch" pitcher the sign could be F2 letting F1 know he's ready to receive the pitch, not the traditional fingers for the type of pitch signs. If you don't know when the signs are actually given, the only thing left to judge, as per the topic, is the quick pitch.

LomUmp

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Here is J/R's take on this:

[color=blue]Pitchers:

• a) must take signs from the catcher while in contact.
• b) cannot habitually disengage the rubber after taking a sign,
• c) upon disengaging, must separate their hands.

If you were a logic major, then you would understand that "Pitchers must take signs from the catcher will in contact" DOES NOT EQUAL "Pitchers must be in contact when taking signs from the catcher." If they had meant the latter, they would have put the latter in the book.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Hold on. Perhaps you've forgotten the original post.

If Steve is referring to my posts, we stopped discussing the OP a long time ago.

I have been discussing ONLY a situation in which F1 is straddling the rubber leaning in to take signs as if he were to pitch, or at least come set. With a runner on, this an extemely deceptive move as it could easily appear to the runner that F1 is in contact.

Let me point out, that I have never seen this, and I have never called a balk for an F1 taking signs off the rubber.

However, I am not yet conviced that the move I describe is legal deception.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Just for the record, I have never called a balk for an F1 taking signs off the rubber either. I only tell the catcher to wait until the pitcher gets on the rubber before giving him a sign, and that only to prevent a quick pitch.

I also have never required the pitcher to take any kind of sign, just to give the hitter time to get ready.