When the obvious call isn't the right call

[Don Mueller]

Another example last night of MLB umps making the right call instead of the obvious call.

Reds/Cubs game last night, bottom 2. Throw beats Fox to second by at least 6 feet. F4 makes the obligatory dip with the glove but misses the tag. Fox slid straight into the bag, nothing special. SAFE.

Hopefully this attitude will filter down to the amateurs.

[JRutledge]

Is there a point to this post? Not sure I even understand what you are trying to say.

Peace

[wsttxump]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Another example last night of MLB umps making the right call instead of the obvious call.

Reds/Cubs game last night, bottom 2. Throw beats Fox to second by at least 6 feet. F4 makes the obligatory dip with the glove but misses the tag. Fox slid straight into the bag, nothing special. SAFE.

Hopefully this attitude will filter down to the amateurs.

The 2nd baseman put his glove on top of the bag and pulled it away when runner arrived. Not a swipe and miss. Obvious, easy call.

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is there a point to this post? Not sure I even understand what you are trying to say.

Peace

Yes there's a point. Too many times umpire's make the 'obvious' call, even though it's not the correct one. There are many who are advocates of this. In the game mentioned, the Cubs' runner slid into second. The fielder had the ball in plenty of time to get the tag and the out. But he held his glove ABOVE the base, not down in front, or on the runner. The second base ump called the runner safe. It was the correct call, because no tag was made. As I said, there are many umpires who say that if the fielder has the ball in time to make the tag, and is close enough, give him the out.

Bob

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Another example last night of MLB umps making the right call instead of the obvious call.

Reds/Cubs game last night, bottom 2. Throw beats Fox to second by at least 6 feet. F4 makes the obligatory dip with the glove but misses the tag. Fox slid straight into the bag, nothing special. SAFE.

Hopefully this attitude will filter down to the amateurs.

You're so eager to prove a point, you bring the wrong evidence.

Saw the play. It was both the obvious call and the right call. No question about it.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by GarthB

You're so eager to prove a point, you bring the wrong evidence.

Saw the play. It was both the obvious call and the right call. No question about it.

Excellent! Attitudes are already changing.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Yes there's a point. Too many times umpire's make the 'obvious' call, even though it's not the correct one. There are many who are advocates of this. In the game mentioned, the Cubs' runner slid into second. The fielder had the ball in plenty of time to get the tag and the out. But he held his glove ABOVE the base, not down in front, or on the runner. The second base ump called the runner safe. It was the correct call, because no tag was made. As I said, there are many umpires who say that if the fielder has the ball in time to make the tag, and is close enough, give him the out.

Bob

Then if that is the point you are trying to make, it is a very bad one.

The only thing most of us have advocated is if the throw clearly beats a runner and there is a decent tag applied along with a slide directly into the tag, we are going to give the benefit of the doubt to the defense. Usually at the amateur level we are not in perfect position to make a call like this (I did see the play BTW) like the Major League Umpire had. Often that call is made from 30 yards away and from a totally different angle that an umpire in the Major Leagues would have. This would not apply if a slide was away from the fielder or was a good effort to avoid the tag. This is quite a different situation from what Don is trying to make. Actually he does not even understand what he is advocating. Not sure you do either Bob.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Excellent! Attitudes are already changing.

Another example that you do not understand a basic concept. Oh well.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Excellent! Attitudes are already changing.

No, your experience, or lack thereof, is showing. My attitude toward this play hasn't changed in 30 years.

The example you cite doesn't fit the parameters of the debate. I know of no "obvious call" advocate who would disagree that safe was the right and obvious call to make.

Thanks for playing. Better try next time.

[lawump]

I don't even know where to begin: oh hell, just shoot me and put me out of my misery.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

how are obvious plays now chainging the face of umpiring??? is the hobgoblin of little minds now working n some posters here? haha

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by GarthB

No, your experience, or lack thereof, is showing. My attitude toward this play hasn't changed in 30 years.

The example you cite doesn't fit the parameters of the debate. I know of no "obvious call" advocate who would disagree that safe was the right and obvious call to make.

Thanks for playing. Better try next time.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller
And why praytell would you make a call contrary to what you saw?
That indeed would be a smittyism

Your response

Originally Posted by GarthB

R2 stealing third, F2 fires down. F5 receives ball before R2 begins head first slide. F5 lays glove down six inches on 2nd base side of the bag. Everyone, including his coach see R2 slides into the tag clearly before the bag, but you, and only you, think that you saw his right hand touch the bag a micro-second before his left hand touched the glove

Your call?..

My OP very similar. Reds F4 receives ball before Fox starts slide. F4 has glove stationary in front of bag (high) well before the touch of the bag.
Before replays the tv audience didn't know if there was a tag and neither did the stadium crowd. The expected call was "out"
Only after replay was it an "obvious safe"

And here are some thoughts from some of the other "obvious call" advocates

Originally Posted by striker99

Okay dogs...time to defend purposely making the wrong call because it is "expected."

Striker calling you out

Originally Posted by SDS

I learned the hard way on that call. My "safe, no tag!" call got me a big butt chewing, and I have taken much less grief by making the expected call ever since. Occasionally, a coach or player will briefly whine "he didn't tag me, Blue" but that is usually the extent of it.

Originally Posted by Pete booth

Same is true concerning the phantom tag. 1. Player out "by a mile" (good margin), good throw and tag where it should be = OUT.
In Summary; When a runner is out they are out and the defense needs to proove to you otherwise

I'm not sure what he means "by tag where it should be", since that is on the runner and he obviously means otherwise

Originally Posted by jim porter

You have that a bit wrong. The call that's obvious to everyone is the *right* call. The call can't be, "wrong," if it's obvious to everyone. It might not be exactly what you think you saw, but it's most certainly the *right* call.
Because the *right* call is the call obvious to everyone. If the whole world sees an out, by golly it's an out. What kind of an umpire would say that it wasn't? Our very jobs are to ensure that one team does not gain an unfair advantage not intended by the rules. It isn't about microscoping and minutiae.

It's not a Smittyism, it's advanced umpiring. It's how such concepts like the phantom tag play and the neighborhood play came to be -- two techniques we see employed by the big boys in MLB on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by Ace

This is one of the best posts I have ever read --on any umpgroup. Huzzahs, JP.

Referring to above post

Originally Posted by Jicecone

Great Jim

EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY

Referring to above post

Originally Posted by Bigump56

Let me ask you something then, Rei. Lets say you have R2 sliding feet first straight into third on a steal where the ball beat him by at least a step. Are looking for F5 to keep his glove down in front of the bag to actually make contact with the runner's foot, or are you going to allow him to make a swipe tag that's close enough for everyone to believe he applied the tag............

As I said, I hope Holbrook's attitude filters down to some amateurs.

[wsttxump]

My OP very similar. Reds F4 receives ball before Fox starts slide. F4 has glove stationary in front of bag (high) well before the touch of the bag.
Before replays the tv audience didn't know if there was a tag and neither did the stadium crowd. The expected call was "out"
Only after replay was it an "obvious safe"


Watch it again, tag was NOT in front of bag. It was on top (over) of the bag. Never in front.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

My OP very similar. Reds F4 receives ball before Fox starts slide. F4 has glove stationary in front of bag (high) well before the touch of the bag.
Before replays the tv audience didn't know if there was a tag and neither did the stadium crowd. The expected call was "out"
Only after replay was it an "obvious safe"

1. You forget, I saw the play. The two had very little in common. Everyone could see the runner was safe in your play, even you. Only the fielder could see it in my play.

2. Please indicate where I gave a personal opinion of what my call would be in my situation that you posted. RIF

3. No one's attitude will be changed by a play not comparable to what was originally being discussed.

4. You remain amusing.

[ozzy6900]

I think that Don is in need of either some medication or liquid refresment from the local tavern.

I also saw the play: obvious call - right call!