Brushing off the picthing plate and the bases

[greymule]

There's no requirement to be in contact with the rubber at the time the pitch is released. Same as in baseball

How's that again?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by greymule

There's no requirement to be in contact with the rubber at the time the pitch is released. Same as in baseball

How's that again?

There is no requirement to be in contact with the rubber at the time the pitch is released. Same as in baseball.

He only need be in contact at the time of the pitch. It is nearly impossible to stay in contact with the rubber at the time of the release, as the pitcher's momentum and weight has shifted onto his front leg.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

It is nearly impossible to stay in contact with the rubber at the time of the release, as the pitcher's momentum and weight has shifted onto his front leg.

http://www.newbalancetampa.com/blog/.../pitcherNB.jpg

http://www.craiggibsonbaseball.com/B...NewRelease.jpg

[SanDiegoSteve]

Thank you for illustrating my point, fitty.

[VanStanza]

Originally Posted by etn_ump

Then, why do FP umpires clean off the rubber? Is it a required mechanic in softball?

If memory serves, watching the College World Series, the pitchers were 2-3 feet in front of the rubber as they released the ball.

In fastpitch softball, because it is such a pitcher driven game, strict rules are created to limit what a pitcher can and can't do. One of the requirements of youth and women's fastpitch is that the pitcher come to a pause with two feet in contact with the rubber. If the pitcher is right-handed, they will put their right heel in contact with the front of the rubber, and the left foot's toes in contact with the back of the rubber. From this position, the pitcher must push forward and the pivot (right) foot must drag away from the pitcher's plate. The reason for cleaning the pitcher's plate is to monitor the back foot (toes) of the pitcher. Every inch a pitcher is able to move their back foot backward (illegally) gains that pitcher an immense advantage in the velocity the pitcher is able to throw. And so, it must be clear to the BU that the pitcher does have both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate at the beginning of the pitching motion.

It should be noted that in men's fastpitch, the pitcher is allowed to keep only the pivot foot in contact with the rubber and the other foot may be positioned any distance back of the rubber. This is because the hitters in fastpitch softball are better than in women's and youth ball, and so, to give the pitcher's a better chance to throw at a high velocity and be more effective. Thus, the umpire is less likely to clean the pitcher's plate.

[greymule]

OK, I see what you mean. In baseball there's a slight disengagement practically simultaneous with the release. The pivot foot comes off just after the other foot hits the ground. (Funny, even as a pitcher, I never considered exactly what was happening during the motion.) But the nature of the overhand delivery makes it virtually impossible to "crow hop," so a replant of the pivot foot isn't an issue.

But in FP, the disengagement occurs much earlier, when the pitcher's arm is beginning to descend behind her. At the time of release, the pivot foot is several feet in front of the rubber, and the umpire has to be watching for a replant. (I do a lot of ASA and NCAA, and it's not difficult to spot.) After a FP game, the "groove" on the mound is long and deep. There's no such groove after a baseball game.

Now assuming a baseball pitcher wanted to pitch underhand, would the FP motion be legal?

it must be clear to the BU that the pitcher does have both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate at the beginning of the pitching motion

You make some good points, VanStanza, but remember that in Fed, the pitchers don't have to have both feet in contact. (However, I hear Fed is considering getting the rule in line with ASA and NCAA.) But the pitchers I see don't start with the right heel in contact with the front of the rubber. They generally put the pivot foot squarely on the rubber so that they can push off with the entire foot. And NCAA requires that at least half the foot be on the top surface of the pitcher's plate, while ASA does not.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

still dont see why FP softyball is discussed here

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UmpLarryJohnson

still dont see why FP softyball is discussed here

It's at least as relevant as starting a new thread on Joe Morgan that has nothing to do with rules or umpiring.

[greymule]

still dont see why FP softyball is discussed here

It is discussed as it relates to baseball. I am one of many umpires who do both baseball and softball, and I don't try to insulate understanding of one game from understanding of the other. Softball derived from baseball, and in my opinion is best understood in that context. It is instructive, for example, in studying softball rules, such as with regard to INT and OBR, to understand how they differ from (or are similar to) OBR. That principle can work the other way, too.

There are people on the softball board who get upset when someone invokes baseball, but if comparing the rule sets aids in the understanding of some aspect of one or the other, I don't see any problem.

I know there are baseball umps who look down on softball and act as if any discussion of it—much less the officiating of it—would somehow be beneath them. I'm not one of them.

It's not as if somebody decided to use the baseball board to pose a question on field hockey.

I've been participating in these boards for years, and if a thread takes a turn that doesn't interest me, it's easy to ignore it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's at least as relevant as starting a new thread on Joe Morgan that has nothing to do with rules or umpiring.

He probably started a new Joe Morgan thread to replace the one that mysteriously disappeared.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

fair enuf mr Bob you got me. i have wiped out that thread. now on with the softyball!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

He probably started a new Joe Morgan thread to replace the one that mysteriously disappeared.

For the record, I didn't delete either Joe Morgan thread.

And, I haven't deleted this thread because it might contribute to an understanding of the arguements we sometimes have over whether baseball umpires should clean the pitcher's rubber and / or bases (and how much of a smitty it makes them if they do so).

[mbyron]

For the record, I deleted my original Joe Morgan thread because it had devolved into an inane pissing contest about whether cancer is funny, instead of an inane pissing contest about whether Joe Morgan is a good announcer.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Thank you for illustrating my point, fitty.

Welcome, wanna know something that few do?

There is more force applied to the arm of the FP pitcher than the same aged baseball pitcher.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by VanStanza

In fastpitch softball, because it is such a pitcher driven game, strict rules are created to limit what a pitcher can and can't do. One of the requirements of youth and women's fastpitch is that the pitcher come to a pause with two feet in contact with the rubber. If the pitcher is right-handed, they will put their right heel in contact with the front of the rubber, and the left foot's toes in contact with the back of the rubber. From this position, the pitcher must push forward and the pivot (right) foot must drag away from the pitcher's plate. The reason for cleaning the pitcher's plate is to monitor the back foot (toes) of the pitcher. Every inch a pitcher is able to move their back foot backward (illegally) gains that pitcher an immense advantage in the velocity the pitcher is able to throw. And so, it must be clear to the BU that the pitcher does have both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate at the beginning of the pitching motion.

Spot on, nice post.

It should be noted that in men's fastpitch, the pitcher is allowed to keep only the pivot foot in contact with the rubber and the other foot may be positioned any distance back of the rubber. This is because the hitters in fastpitch softball are better than in women's and youth ball, and so, to give the pitcher's a better chance to throw at a high velocity and be more effective. Thus, the umpire is less likely to clean the pitcher's plate.

Ever call any Men's, what a blast, they pull F3/F5 in tight, the ball is huge and it's an easy PU call. The games go lickety-split, low scoring, I loved it.