Had to dump 3...or did I?

[Tommy P]

Men's Wooden Bat League played under FED.

Sitch.

I got the dish.

Bottom 9, bases loaded, 0 outs, home team down 1.

B1 hits a ground ball to F5. Throw comes in to F2 for the force at home plate. The throw is short, so the catcher has to reach for it, bobbles it, but holds on with his foot still in contact with the plate. "Out", I say. As F2 raises up to throw to 1st, his right foot (pivot foot) comes up and into R3 who is in his final stride to touch the plate.

The contact spins the catcher around and to the ground (no throw was made) who is now lying on the ground in pain. As you know, here comes the coach. "That's interference". "How can you not call that, can't you see my catcher laying here hurt, you have to call that". "That's a FPSR". ETC...

Well, I explained why I judged it not to be interference, but to no avail.

As F2 is being looked after, a player comes in my face asking, "why didn't you call that, that's terrible". The coach gets in between us and attempts to push him away. The player tries to get around his coach and at me again, giving me this look as though he wanted to kick my azz. Bing, one gone!

Coach then asks me, "why did you just throw out my right fielder?" "Because your right fielder should be in right field, not coming up to me questioning a judgement call". Then he starts to rant and rave, I tell him that's enough, we are done with this conversation too. He continues, Bing, two gone!

Now, here comes the assistant coach. Looks at me and says, "that's ridiculous". Bing, three gone. Assistant coach then continues to come at me, I stand there, and he walks up and bumps me. This is the first time I have been bumped. My first impulse was to blast this knuckle head, but I just kinda smirked and walked away.

Play continues after coaches get out of site. Base hit, 2 score, game over 1 minute later.

Thoughts?

[Tim C]

I could use a little more information:

I am trying to picture where exactly F2 was located when the contact occurred.

I am trying to picture what the runner did at the plate . . . did he just run through the plate, did he slide, did he stop right on top of the plate?

I want to make sure that the game was played under National Federation rules.

If you can extrapolate just a little I can give you an opinion about the play.

Regards,

[BigUmp56]

I hate to say this but it sounds to me like you had a FPSR violation and failed to make the call. I'm not sure how you felt the runner didn't alter the play here.

Also, I can understand the first two ejections. The third one was probably a little much though. Saying "that's ridiculous" shouldn't warrant an ejection.


Tim.

[Tommy P]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I could use a little more information:

I am trying to picture where exactly F2 was located when the contact occurred. [/QUOTE]

Right foot on plate, stretching down third base line.

[/QUOTE]I am trying to picture what the runner did at the plate . . . did he just run through the plate, did he slide, did he stop right on top of the plate? [/QUOTE]

Ran through the plate. If you can imagine when you plant your foot as you throw, your pivot foot comes up on the follow through. That is what the catcher did, without releasing the ball, as R3 was crossing the plate.

[/QUOTE]I want to make sure that the game was played under National Federation rules.

Yes, the league wanted the FPSR in effect.

Thanks!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Also, I can understand the first two ejections. The third one was probably a little much though. Saying "that's ridiculous" shouldn't warrant an ejection.

Well, it did come from an assistant coach, who's only job is to say "atta-boy" and "turn left."

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Tommy P

Right foot on plate, stretching down third base line.

Ran through the plate. If you can imagine when you plant your foot as you throw, your pivot foot comes up on the follow through. That is what the catcher did, without releasing the ball, as R3 was crossing the plate.


Yes, the league wanted the FPSR in effect.

Thanks!

Tommy,

The runner has two options when the FPSR is in effect. He must either execute a legal slide or get out of the way so as to not alter the play. Here the runner's actions altered the play and I think you missed the call.

Tim.

[Tommy P]

Sorry Tim C, I don't know how to use the quote and respond to it individually.

Can someone tell me how?

IMO, I treated it and saw it as a play at 1st base. F2/F3 is pulled off the bag, there is a little contact, everyone doing what they should be. Question is, would home and first be treated the same way since you can run through both in this situation?

[UmpLarryJohnson]

FPSR in EFFECT at SEC, THIRD BASES when the force is on, HOME plate also. FIRST base is a different beastie, cant comparee to others in this regard. A LITTLE DOG was VIOLATED here in this sich sorry to say.

[Tim C]

I want to be very careful here as all I can really do is read your words, make a mental picture in my mind and rule as I "think" I would do on the field.

"IMO, I treated it and saw it as a play at 1st base."

This is the first "problem." The play must be consiuder the same as a play at second or third in a force play situation.

"Ran through the plate."

At the plate this is the only thing he cannot do.

As BigUmp has noted he must slide or avoid . . . the instant he did not he is open for a FPSR violation.

The plate is even a little different that even 2nd and 3rd. With the plate flat to the ground the runner still cannot slide past the "base."

What really matters in your play is when the contact occurred . . . if it was in front of the plate (base) rather than at or past the plate (base) then you could have nuttin' -- HOWEVER -- if the contact occurred at the pate or past the plate and there was no attempt to avoid it would be FPSR>

From what you have posted -- an in my ivory tower -- I think you missed a Force Play Slide Rule violation.

BTW, speaking to your title of the thread . . . you would have still had the ejections . . . it just would have been players and rats from the offensive team.

Regards,

[Tommy P]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I want to be very careful here as all I can really do is read your words, make a mental picture in my mind and rule as I "think" I would do on the field.

"IMO, I treated it and saw it as a play at 1st base."

This is the first "problem." The play must be consiuder the same as a play at second or third in a force play situation.

"Ran through the plate."

At the plate this is the only thing he cannot do.

As BigUmp has noted he must slide or avoid . . . the instant he did not he is open for a FPSR violation.

The plate is even a little different that even 2nd and 3rd. With the plate flat to the ground the runner still cannot slide past the "base."

What really matters in your play is when the contact occurred . . . if it was in front of the plate (base) rather than at or past the plate (base) then you could have nuttin' -- HOWEVER -- if the contact occurred at the pate or past the plate and there was no attempt to avoid it would be FPSR>

From what you have posted -- an in my ivory tower -- I think you missed a Force Play Slide Rule violation.

BTW, speaking to your title of the thread . . . you would have still had the ejections . . . it just would have been players and rats from the offensive team.

Regards,

The contact was approx. 3-4 ft. on the 3rd base side of home plate.

Sorry, I tried to paint a mental picture. Let me try one more time.

As the catcher stretched for the throw, he held his foot on the plate after a slight bobble, pulling him up the line. As he came up, his pivot foot was straddling the line. As he went to throw to 1st, his pivot foot came up and R3ran into it spinning the catcher around with no throw.

I must admit, if the throw was made and was errant, I would have made the same call. I think

Thanks all for your input!

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by Tommy P

The contact was approx. 3-4 ft. on the 3rd base side of home plate.

Sorry, I tried to paint a mental picture. Let me try one more time.

As the catcher stretched for the throw, he held his foot on the plate after a slight bobble, pulling him up the line. As he came up, his pivot foot was straddling the line. As he went to throw to 1st, his pivot foot came up and R3ran into it spinning the catcher around with no throw.

I must admit, if the throw was made and was errant, I would have made the same call. I think

Thanks all for your input!

The runner cannot go in standing up and make contact. It doesn't matter where the catcher's pivot foot was.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

The runner cannot go in standing up and make contact. It doesn't matter where the catcher's pivot foot was.

he ASKED for opinions but looks like his MIND was already SET

Originally Posted by Tommy P

The contact was approx. 3-4 ft. on the 3rd base side of home plate.

Sorry, I tried to paint a mental picture. Let me try one more time.

As the catcher stretched for the throw, he held his foot on the plate after a slight bobble, pulling him up the line. As he came up, his pivot foot was straddling the line. As he went to throw to 1st, his pivot foot came up and R3ran into it spinning the catcher around with no throw.

I must admit, if the throw was made and was errant, I would have made the same call. I think

Thanks all for your input!

Okay, here is the problem based on how I am picturing the play.

The runner MUST either slide, or, move AWAY from the fielder in the force play slide rule, otherwise he is interfering with the player making the play.

In this case, had the runner slid, and made the contact before the base IN THE BASE PATH or on the base, the contact would be legal. If the contact was on either side or beyond the bag, it is interference. If he didn't slide, it doesn't matter WHERE he or the fielder is, if he makes contact, he has interfered with the play and he, and the next runner is out.

It is as simple as that really.

[Steven Tyler]

Instead of the next runner being out, shouldn't that be the batter/runner being ruled out on the interference?

Originally Posted by Tommy P

As F2 is being looked after, a player comes in my face asking, "why didn't you call that, that's terrible". The coach gets in between us and attempts to push him away. The player tries to get around his coach and at me again, giving me this look as though he wanted to kick my azz. Bing, one gone!

I would not have even waited for the coach to get between us. He left his position in the field to argue a call. He is gone gone gone!!!

Coach then asks me, "why did you just throw out my right fielder?" "Because your right fielder should be in right field, not coming up to me questioning a judgement call". Then he starts to rant and rave, I tell him that's enough, we are done with this conversation too. He continues, Bing, two gone!

I wasn't there, so I have no idea what "He continues" means. At this point, I might have given him a second warning to end the argument before throwing him though. Hard to say if he deserved the ejection. He was probably livid that you missed the force play slide rule interference. I would have been livid! But, I have to be soft towards you on this. I have only had to make 1 force play slide rule interference call at home in 21 years, and luckily, I got it right!

Now, here comes the assistant coach. Looks at me and says, "that's ridiculous". Bing, three gone. Assistant coach then continues to come at me, I stand there, and he walks up and bumps me. This is the first time I have been bumped. My first impulse was to blast this knuckle head, but I just kinda smirked and walked away.

Hmmmm....So the new head coach makes an observation, which is starting to sort of appear to be spot on, and you toss him. Well, I actually am not too surprised that he bumped you afterwards! Usually after an ejection, I turn and walk away and let my partner peel them off so as to avoid the bump! Bumps are serious, and I certainly don't want to bring one on. I was taught to turn away after an ejection. That is what you should have done. You have already pissed the guy off by:

1 - Getting the call wrong.
2 - Letting the right fielder stay in the game for a bit after his first comment towards you after he left his position to make it!
3 - Dumping the other coach who obviously knew the force play slide rule better than the umpire did!
4 - Dumping him for saying "That's ridiculous".

Play continues after coaches get out of site. Base hit, 2 score, game over 1 minute later.

Thoughts?

Your wrongly applied ruling could have had the runner going into 3rd out too! Thus, the "hit" by the next batter might not have scored any runs!!!

I am assuming that the catcher was going to make a play on the batter/runner when he was interfered by R1, thus, there still would have been runners on 2nd and 3rd. In this case, your wrongly applied ruling would not have made much difference with the batter knocking in two runs to end the game.

BUT...........making a big double play with the bases loaded sure has a way of energizing a team and a pitcher. While it is impossible to say whether your decision either way would have effected the next play, only an idiot would say that it wouldn't make a difference eh?

Live and learn I suppose. You may never have this happen again in your career. Hopefully it will so you can get it right next time.

Slow down on giving the heave ho. Look for ways to keep people in the game. I ref indoor soccer and was trained by a US Indoor national level instructor (he trains the pro guys) and he is fond of saying (concerning ejecting players) "Set the bar high. But by god if they go over it, BOOK 'EM!!!".