How about an old guy brain dump on closely guarded

[Larks]

NFHS and NCAA - Case play references if possible please.

Sitch: A1 has the ball dribbling in the BC being guarded by B1. New T has a 10 sec count.

I've noticed that sometimes the trail picks up a 5 second count as soon as A1 & B1 cross the division line. Is this because legal guarding position was established in the BC and that "status" stays with them until they are separated by 6 feet?

Same topic - What is your opinion on situations where YOU pick up a closely guarded. Example: I am probably guilty of not putting a count on when B is 6 feet away but by rule, it's 6 feet. IMHO, nobody is closely guarded at 6 feet and I see my peers call it at more like 3.

I also notice that sometimes you can have a dribbling situation coming into your primary and you have no idea if legal guarding position was ever established. I suppose glancing at my P, if he doesnt have a count on that guarded dribble, I should NOT pick one up.

Am I just thinking too much on this?

[truerookie]

Originally posted by Larks
NFHS and NCAA - Case play references if possible please.

Sitch: A1 has the ball dribbling in the BC being guarded by B1. New T has a 10 sec count.

I've noticed that sometimes the trail picks up a 5 second count as soon as A1 & B1 cross the division line. Is this because legal guarding position was established in the BC and that "status" stays with them until they are separated by 6 feet?

The is legal when A1 has establish FC status and the close guarded criteria is met.

Same topic - What is your opinion on situations where YOU pick up a closely guarded. Example: I am probably guilty of not putting a count on when B is 6 feet away but by rule, it's 6 feet. IMHO, nobody is closely guarded at 6 feet and I see my peers call it at more like 3.

IMO, you should fall within the guidelines established by the rulebook and apply them appropriately 6' is 6'.


I also notice that sometimes you can have a dribbling situation coming into your primary and you have no idea if legal guarding position was ever established. I suppose glancing at my P, if he doesnt have a count on that guarded dribble, I should NOT pick one up.

Your assessement is correct in glancing at you P if he/she does not have a count and the criteria is met for a closely-guarded situation you should pick up the count. Normally, you partner should maintain their count once he/she starts it until the situation changes (i.e stops dribble; try for goal).
Am I just thinking too much on this?

Only, you can honestly answer that question.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Larks
NFHS and NCAA - Case play references if possible please.

Sitch: A1 has the ball dribbling in the BC being guarded by B1. New T has a 10 sec count.

1) I've noticed that sometimes the trail picks up a 5 second count as soon as A1 & B1 cross the division line. Is this because legal guarding position was established in the BC and that "status" stays with them until they are separated by 6 feet?

2) Same topic - What is your opinion on situations where YOU pick up a closely guarded. Example: I am probably guilty of not putting a count on when B is 6 feet away but by rule, it's 6 feet. IMHO, nobody is closely guarded at 6 feet and I see my peers call it at more like 3.

3) I also notice that sometimes you can have a dribbling situation coming into your primary and you have no idea if legal guarding position was ever established. I suppose glancing at my P, if he doesnt have a count on that guarded dribble, I should NOT pick one up.

I'll give you NFHS cites. I think that the NCAA mens rules are similar, but I'm too lazy to look 'em up. NCAA Womens? I dunno.

1) To have a closely guarded count, the defender must first obtain a LGP as per R4-23-2. That LGP rule doesn't specify where you have to obtain it; iow, the defender can establish his LGP either in the front or backcourt. After establishing LGP, the defender can then establish and maintain a closely guarded position by staying within 6' of the player with the ball as per R4-23-1, and at the same time also meet the provisions of R4-23-3. There is no closely guarded count in the backcourt- as per R9-10-1a. If the defender established LGP in his opponent's backcourt and is also in a closely-guarded position on that opponent when the opponent enters the front court, then the 5-second count will start immediately. The case book play is 9.10.1SitA.

2) Rule sez 6 feet. Not many officials have a count at 6 feet though if the defender isn't aggressively defending- or trying to, I think. I think the purpose and intent of the rule is to reward a defender for playing defense, not just hanging around in front of the dribbler to kinda half-assedly keep him outside. The best way to call this one imo is to talk to your peers in your area, and try to have everybody call it uniformly.

3)The partner who starts the count should try and maintain it. It's harder than hell imo to figure out where the count is if you didn't start it. Quick look at your partner. If your partner keeps his count going, let him finish it. If your partner doesn't have a count, start your's if it's applicable.

Just one old guy's opinion.

[BktBallRef]

LGP is not required. He only need meet the definition of guarding, 4-23-1, and be within 6 feet.

And if you're making him be closer than 6', then you're wrong.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
LGP is not required. He only need meet the definition of guarding, 4-23-1, and be within 6 feet.

And if you're making him be closer than 6', then you're wrong.

Are you saying that the defender doesn't have to establish an initial LGP before meeting the "closely guarded" definitions? Or am I misunderstanding you again?

[blindzebra]

LGP must be established initially.

Last years guide had it as a POE.

[Larks]

3)The partner who starts the count should try and maintain it. It's harder than hell imo to figure out where the count is if you didn't start it. Quick look at your partner. If your partner keeps his count going, let him finish it. If your partner doesn't have a count, start your's if it's applicable.

Just one old guy's opinion.

JR - Thanks for the references. I agree with your thoughts thats it's hard to put a count on for a defender doing nothing other than standing 5' 11" away from the A1.

On 3, I was saying that IF A1 comes into my primary say from T to C and 1 ) T does not have a count on and 2 ) I have no idea if LFP was ever established, I really shouldnt have a count unless B1 get the chance to meet the req of LGP. Agreed?

Another curve ball here....You have a count, A1 dribbling w/ ball at the elbow. At your 4 count, he drives as if to start a layup. Suspend the count right? What if he then passes? Immediate 5 because you suspended the count?

I know this stuff sounds basic. I understand the rule, what I am looking for here is a concensus on how the rule is applied in practice.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Larks

JR - Thanks for the references. I agree with your thoughts thats it's hard to put a count on for a defender doing nothing other than standing 5' 11" away from the A1.

On 3, I was saying that IF A1 comes into my primary say from T to C and 1 ) T does not have a count on and 2 ) I have no idea if LFP was ever established, I really shouldnt have a count unless B1 get the chance to meet the req of LGP. Agreed?

Another curve ball here....You have a count, A1 dribbling w/ ball at the elbow. At your 4 count, he drives as if to start a layup. Suspend the count right? What if he then passes? Immediate 5 because you suspended the count?

I know this stuff sounds basic. I understand the rule, what I am looking for here is a concensus on how the rule is applied in practice.

If A1 does not get head and shoulders past the defender's torso, the count continues.

[Larks]

If A1 does not get head and shoulders past the defender's torso, the count continues.

TY BZ. Good to review this stuff from time to time.

[Snake~eyes]

This is good stuff - I'm going to review last years rulebook and read the POE as it is quite detailed.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you saying that the defender doesn't have to establish an initial LGP before meeting the "closely guarded" definitions? Or am I misunderstanding you again?

I'm saying that the rule book says nothing about meeting the definition of LGP before a count begins. If I, as a defender, pick up a dribbler while moving and maintain 6' or less, he's closely guarded. It makes no difference whether I ever was facing him with both feet on the floor at the same time or not. I can pick him up on the run and still have a CG count started.

That's what I'm saying.

I haven't reviewed what the POE said last year but I do remember there being a lot of discussion about. I'm simply baseing what I've said on what's in the rule book and case book.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 27th, 2005 at 12:16 AM]

[Snake~eyes]

Just looked at the POE it says "It should also be emphasized that the defensive player must obtain a legal guarding position" under the "When to start." section of the Closely Guarded POE.

[blindzebra]

2004-2005 POE

1. Closely guarded

A. When to start

Last line of paragraph one:

It should be emphasized that the defensive player MUST OBTAIN A LEGAL GUARDING POSITION.

Guess those rules aren't so clear after all, huh.

p.s. It also does not include during a screen under when to stop a count in that POE.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 27th, 2005 at 12:20 AM]

[BktBallRef]

So you're saying in the example that I cite above, since LGP was never established, the defender be guarding a dribbler and can be within 6' for 20 seconds but we aren't supposed to count?

Sorry but it's not in the rules, BZ. If it is, please cite the reference. It doesn't say LGP must be obtained first. And it doesn't say the count continues when the defender is screened and is no longer guarding the player with the ball.

Let me add that there's no such thing as an "illegal guarding position." But until last year's POE, nothing has ever been written that said LGP was required for a CG count. If there was, I can't find it. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

I'm done. I'm simply not interested in these long drawn out arguments anymore.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 27th, 2005 at 01:05 AM]

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
So you're saying in the example that I cite above, since LGP was never established, the defender be guarding a dribbler and can be within 6' for 20 seconds but we aren't supposed to count?

Sorry but it's not in the rules, BZ. If it is, please cite the reference. It doesn't say LGP must be obtained first. And it doesn't say the count continues when the defender is screened and is no longer guarding the player with the ball.

I'm done. I'm simply not interested in these long drawn out arguments anymore.

I'm saying exactly what was said IN THE 2004-2005 RULE BOOK.

I've been saying over two forums that the rule is vague, and you have been busting my cherries about it, and now you are saying that the POE FROM THE FREAKING RULE BOOK is not in the rules.

Okay.