Home Run or Catch?

[soundedlikeastrike]

Moronic or not: an excerpt from MLBUM may also be moronic, but it's the mechanic I'd use.

I would indeed kill it, as the ball did go OOP, that's "time" in any ball park. Whether thrown, carried or batted.

Once the runner has touched 2nd, he's touched second and owns it.
Albeit not quit yet legally, not my problem either.

At the time the ball went dead he was between 2nd and 3rd, after, "touching 2nd". The award must be one base from where he was.

If the runner does what he's supposed to, retouches, then yes, I agree, the award would now be 2B.

I cannot authenticate this, but it comes from a source I trust.
It entertains a two base award, I can't recall any source that would dictate a one base award, be treated any differently.

From MLBUM:
Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)
Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught.
Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout.
Runner is between second and third when
the wild throw is made.
Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw).
However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base.
Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not
return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first.

However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

[SAump]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

Moronic or not: an excerpt from MLBUM may also be moronic, but it's the mechanic I'd use. I would indeed kill it, as the ball did go OOP, that's "time" in any ball park. Whether thrown, carried or batted. Once the runner has touched 2nd, he's touched second and owns it. Albeit not quit yet legally, not my problem either. At the time the ball went dead he was between 2nd and 3rd, after, "touching 2nd". The award must be one base from where he was.
If the runner does what he's supposed to, retouches, then yes, I agree, the award would now be 2B. I cannot authenticate this, but it comes from a source I trust. It entertains a two base award, I can't recall any source that would dictate a one base award, be treated any differently.

From MLBUM: Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)
Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made. Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw).
However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not
return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first.
However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

Quoting your MLBUM was good. Did you notice both "howevers" and feel right about the original ruling? Someone brighter than me would have to explain why the difference in opinion appears in the MLBUM.

OBR 7.05(i) Comment {2}: If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

In MLBUM play above, the correct award was 3B. From BRD #35 Play 44-35, "At all levels the umpire awards R1 third. In FED (if it's legal), NCAA, and OBR , if the runner does not retouch before he touches third, he is in peril of being called out on appeal." BRD #419 also provides for the same ruling. R1, may not return to touch 1B in FED or NCAA {when not in act of returning}; but in OBR, "he must return before receiving the award."

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

Moronic or not: an excerpt from MLBUM may also be moronic, but it's the mechanic I'd use.

I would indeed kill it, as the ball did go OOP, that's "time" in any ball park. Whether thrown, carried or batted.

Once the runner has touched 2nd, he's touched second and owns it.
Albeit not quit yet legally, not my problem either.

At the time the ball went dead he was between 2nd and 3rd, after, "touching 2nd". The award must be one base from where he was.

If the runner does what he's supposed to, retouches, then yes, I agree, the award would now be 2B.

I cannot authenticate this, but it comes from a source I trust.
It entertains a two base award, I can't recall any source that would dictate a one base award, be treated any differently.

From MLBUM:
Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)
Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught.
Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout.
Runner is between second and third when
the wild throw is made.
Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw).
However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base.
Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not
return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first.

However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

You simply cannot give the runner in the OP any base but second. This was not an overthrow, it was a dead ball after a legal catch and the award. by rule, is one base. Since the runner must return to first base to legally advance, dead ball or live ball, he can only be awarded 2nd base.

Period.

[soundedlikeastrike]

One last try; ah, the english language.

The term: A runner "must return", is not an all inclusive description IMO.

Yes, that's what is says verbatim, and that is a very accurate description IF, there is an appeal.

It means. A runner "must return to be legal and safe from an appeal".

There is no where, in any rule set, that makes it "mandatory", i.e. "this game will not re-commence until the runner re-touches". Nor, "I'm not ruling anything until he re-touches. It just ain't so.

At the time the ball goes out of play, kill it, make the 1 base award like the rule says, from where the runner is at the time the ball became dead.

I see the moralality of what your saying, but hey, enforcement of the rules doesn't alway involve morality.

I really think a F5 charging a week dribbler up the line and throwing from a horizontal position to just miss the runner at 1B by a 1/2 step, is immoral. Hey, he hit a weak grounder to the infield, F5 made a great play, but guess what, he's still safe.

The argument that "this is not an over throw" means nothing. It's a dead ball and a base award is warranted. The only difference is how many bases.

In the MLBUM quote: the orginal award is two bases, that didn't change, runner was past 2B, he is awarded 3RD and HP. If he does that, okay, score the run, unless, there is an appeal, then ring him up on his coaches behalf.
The offense screwed up not me.

If he goes back and retouches, the award is to 3rd.
Hey, an Umpire can change his mind, I like that.

I don't see a difference enforcing a "2 base award" vs a "1 base award" during a retouch situation.

If the runner returns to re-touch, I change the ruling and award 2B. That wasn't hard now was it?

Every rule set means, the runner, must re-touch legally, in the right order etc., to be "exempt" from being called out on appeal.

Same play, with R1 tagging and leaving just a tad bit early. He still "must return". But if he doesn't, the one base award is still 2nd, even if he doesn't retouch. He's on second illegally, so what? Not my problem. Defense appeals he's out, they don't, he's on 2nd.

Good topic. But to answer the OP, yeah, legal catch and a one base award from where the runner are at the time the ball goes dead. So R1, to 2nd, R2 to 3rd, score R3, and yes, even if one or all em failed to retouch.

Period.

[DG]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

At the time the ball goes out of play, kill it, make the 1 base award like the rule says, from where the runner is at the time the ball became dead.

We disagree, the correct award is what is is and I would never recommend making an incorrect award knowingly. Whether he goes back to touch is a separate subject.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

One last try; ah, the english language.
Good topic. Period.

You may have been right all along or perhaps you correctly presented some outdated information. Perhaps the play you outlined from the MLBUM was printed in an older version. Perhaps this was one of them times when a revision was introduced. Rules are changed all the time for one reason or another.

Play 217-419 ... {Similar to your play} ..."In OBR: regardless of his actions, he may retouch 1B before advancing to 3B. {He is initially awarded home! Maybe. See Play 218-419 next.} "

Play 218-419: 'R1 leaves too soon and is between 2B and 3B at the TOT that goes dead. R1 is not returning to 1B. (Revised) Ruling: In FED and NCAA, R1 is awarded home. {In FED and NCAA, R1 cannot return to touch 1B.} In OBR, R1 is awarded 3B, 2 bases from his original base.

I am quoting from the 2006 BRD, #419. Be aware of the possibility that you may need to re-clarify your position after you compare the two plays with the latest MLBUM information on this topic. That is why we read this website and discuss these things. That is why most of us look forward to the next edition of the BRD.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SAump

You may have been right all along or perhaps you correctly presented some outdated information. Perhaps the play you outlined from the MLBUM was printed in an older version. Perhaps this was one of them times when a revision was introduced. Rules are changed all the time for one reason or another.

Play 217-419 ... {Similar to your play} ..."In OBR: regardless of his actions, he may retouch 1B before advancing to 3B. {He is initially awarded home! Maybe. See Play 218-419 next.} "

Play 218-419: 'R1 leaves too soon and is between 2B and 3B at the TOT that goes dead. R1 is not returning to 1B. (Revised) Ruling: In FED and NCAA, R1 is awarded home. {In FED and NCAA, R1 cannot return to touch 1B.} In OBR, R1 is awarded 3B, 2 bases from his original base.

I am quoting from the 2006 BRD, #419. Be aware of the possibility that you may need to re-clarify your position after you compare the two plays with the latest MLBUM information on this topic. That is why we read this website and discuss these things. That is why most of us look forward to the next edition of the BRD.

You award third, then revise it to 2B IF he retouches 1B. The rationale is that by only awarding 2B you are announcing the screw-up.

[bob jenkins]

Note that MLBUM is contrary to PBUC on this play. So, we're left with (a) one of them is wrong, or (b) there's a different ruling in MLB and MiLB, even though both use OBR.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Note that MLBUM is contrary to PBUC on this play. So, we're left with (a) one of them is wrong, or (b) there's a different ruling in MLB and MiLB, even though both use OBR.

B.

There are several interpretations that are different in MiLB from MLB. There are even some rules in MiLB that do not exist in MLB.

MiLB umpires, at least the new ones, are discouraged from reading the MLBUM, JEA and J/R so they do not get any rules or interps confused.

[jimpiano]

I see the moralality(sic) of what your saying, but hey, enforcement of the rules doesn't alway involve morality.

This discussion may have gotten technical, but I doubt, no matter how any of us rule, it has reached the point where it needs divine intervention, or even a runner to Rome.