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Old Wed Jun 20, 2007, 12:23am
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Thumbs down Dreams Park Ejection Penalty

With my trip to Cooperstown Dreams Park coming up, I thought I'd ask about a situation I had last year.

I was the plate umpire in a two man system. The coach of the defensive team goes out to the pitcher's mound and stands there as the pitcher throws his warmup pitches. By the rulebook, a mound visit starts when the coach crosses the foul line. I politely inform the coach that that counts as a mound visit. He gets PO'd about it, "you've gotta be kidding me", that sort of thing, but finally says exclaims "alright, if that's the way you want it, fine" and leaves.

He brought in another pitcher in that same inning as the original pitcher had been struggling. He stands out on the pitcher's mound again as his pitcher throws his warmup pitches. Now in this case I know I was wrong. I believed that if the coach who removed the pitcher stays on the mound as his new pitcher throws his warmups, that is a visit. However the rule actually states that "If the coach goes to the mound and removes a pitcher and then the manager goes to the mound to talk with the new pitcher, that will constitute one trip to that new pitcher that inning"; the manager and coach are two separate people.

When I inform the coach the second time that he is charged with another visit, he more or less goes ballistic. He's got a really angry tone of voice, so much so that my partner is close by to watch my back. I ask him whether the manager is charged with a visit, and my partner tells me it's not a visit, so I say that's fine no visit afterall on the second incident. The coach is still pissed off even though he has (rightfully) gotten his own way. He says to my partner "wow this guy I dunno", referring to me when he says "this guy". Then he says "I'm a former professional baseball player, I know what I'm talking about". I politely tell him that "you need to calm down a bit" and he tells me "you need to calm down!". As I go back behind the plate and he heads back to the bench he is still fuming and saying stuff, so I tell him "that's enough" and he quiets down. He showed off his hot-headed attitude later in the game by chewing out some of his players who didn't perform to his expectations, and speaking angrily in Spanish, ending many of his sentences with the words "god dam".

At any other ballpark I would have probably been more strict, immediately telling him to get himself under control after he chewed me out on the mound and if he doesn't comply, eject him. However at Cooperstown Dreams Park, any coach who is ejected from a ballgame is immediatly escorted by security to the lodging site, where he packs up his stuff and leaves the park. If he ever enters the park again, as coach or fan, it counts as tresspassing. I don't believe they get their money back either. The park does not go back on ejections either, no matter how uncalled for the ejection might be.

What do you guys think about the entire situation? Should I have tossed him? Should umpires be more lenient when the penalty for ejection is so severe? And is the owner of the park on a power trip, to the point that he needs to enfore such severe penalties.

No flaming in this thread. If you have something unkind or offensive to say, say it over the private message system.

Last edited by canadaump6; Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:35am.
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Old Wed Jun 20, 2007, 01:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6

No flaming in this thread. If you have something unkind or offensive to say, say it over the private message system.
Is "you obviously don't have a clue about the rule" conisdered unkind or offensive?
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Old Wed Jun 20, 2007, 05:41am
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Power Trip...

I wouldn't say the owner is on a power trip, at least for his reasoning on the penalty for ejection.

If you haven't been to CDP yet, you and the coaches will hear it a few times that if he's Ejected that he will be escorted to the cabin to pack up and be escorted to the front gate. No money back or nothing. He is even digitally removed from the team picture. They do stand behind the umpire and don't reverse the ejection. However, they will review your handling of the situation and supposedly will kick you out if you just Eject to do it.

If it is justified, you'll be fine. I've gone three years and only had one coach come out to question me on a ruling. These coaches actually know the game a little. More than those in your local leagues.

They understand the policy and control theirselves.

How embarassing that would be and what a way to ruin a vacation.
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Old Wed Jun 20, 2007, 06:27am
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Dump 'em regardless. They know the rules. If they don't wanna go home, they should stay in the dugout/coach's boxes where they belong.
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Old Wed Jun 20, 2007, 06:31am
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I hope that you have since learned the correct way to enforce the rule about visits since last year!

A manager may remain with his replacement pitcher providing:
  1. He does not retreat from the dirt of the mound (OBR & NCAA) or cross the foul line (FED). LL may still be the foul line, I am not sure.
  2. He does not delay the game.
A manager may go with his pitcher to the mound between innings (to watch the warm up throws) providing he does not delay the game.

You quoted a portion of OBR 8.06(d) Case Book Comment - "If the coach goes to the mound and removes a pitcher and then the manager goes to the mound to talk with the new pitcher, that will constitute one trip to that new pitcher that inning". Read the portion again an note that the first part says that the manager removes the pitcher. The second part (separated by the word AND refers to the manager returning to the mound after replacing the pitcher. In other words, if the manager went to the mound and took the ball from F1 and called for the "lefty", handed the new F1 the ball and walked off the dirt (OBR) then turned around and approached the mound again, that would constitute a 2nd visit.


This has been discussed on this board and over at umpire.org countless number of times. Now don't get all upset here but again, you are only reading what you want to read. Here's the whole casebook reference for OBR 8.06(d):
Rule 8.06 Comment: If the manager or coach goes to the catcher or infielder and that player then goes to the mound or the pitcher comes to him at his position before there is an intervening play (a pitch or other play) that will be the same as the manager or coach going to the mound.
Any attempt to evade or circumvent this rule by the manager or coach going to the catcher or an infielder and then that player going to the mound to confer with the pitcher shall constitute a trip to the mound.
If the coach goes to the mound and removes a pitcher and then the manager goes to the mound to talk with the new pitcher, that will constitute one trip to that new pitcher that inning.
In a case where a manager has made his first trip to the mound and then returns the second time to the mound in the same inning with the same pitcher in the game and the same batter at bat, after being warned by the umpire that he cannot return to the mound, the manager shall be removed from the game and the pitcher required to pitch to the batter until he is retired or gets on base. After the batter is retired, or becomes a base runner, then this pitcher must be removed from the game. The manager should be notified that his pitcher will be removed from the game after he pitches to one hitter, so he can have a substitute pitcher warmed up.
The substitute pitcher will be allowed eight preparatory pitches or more if in the umpire’s judgment circumstances justify.

Hopefully, you now have a better understanding of the rule and how to enforce it.

Regards

P.S. If you have a rebuttal on this, put it here and not in a PM please. I want all to see what you have to say!
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Old Wed Jun 20, 2007, 07:49am
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hehehehe,

If you can't handle being crticized don't post. Please, please, please don't post.

What a twit.

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Old Wed Jun 20, 2007, 07:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
What do you guys think about the entire situation?
I think you missed the rule three times (the visit between innings, the visit during the change and the reason for then allowing the visit during the change) and I think your game management ("you need to calm down a bit") could use some work.

Plus, if you would have ejected at another park, you should have ejected here. Your only concern should be the game -- additional penalties are someone else's responsibility.
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Old Wed Jun 20, 2007, 08:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
Then he says "I'm a former professional baseball player, I know what I'm talking about".
So are Joe Morgan and Tim McCarver...

Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
I politely tell him that "you need to calm down a bit" and he tells me "you need to calm down!".
If he pulls the "I'm a former pro ballplayer" crap, I don't politely tell him anything.

Now, since you seemed to screw the pooch on the rule, maybe you should use it as a learning tool. Read one rule a day for the rest of the summer... go and sin no more.
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Old Wed Jun 20, 2007, 11:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
By the rulebook, a mound visit starts when the coach crosses the foul line. I politely inform the coach that that counts as a mound visit.
. Now in this case I know I was wrong. When I inform the coach the second time that he is charged with another visit, he more or less goes ballistic. He's got a really angry tone of voice, so much so that my partner is close by to watch my back. I ask him whether the manager is charged with a visit, and my partner tells me it's not a visit, so I say that's fine no visit afterall on the second incident. .
You messed up on a rules interp and you knew it. When this happens to me I certainly give the coach a little more rope, not an endless supply but more than usual.
In this instance I would give a little because of my own mistake not because of the Parks penalties.
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