Re-entry/courtesy

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

I'm looking at the 2006 BRD, section 467, where it states in notes, "Since projected substitutions are not allowed, a coach may not, for example, pinch hit for his catcher and then, if he gets on base, send out a courtesy runner for the pinch hitter". How does this differ with the pitcher vs. catcher?

Because he re-entered the pitcher/catcher before he sent the courtesy runner in.

Coach pinch hits for pitcher who gets on base via a single.

Coach: "Time re-enter my pitcher for the pinch hitter who is on first. (pitcher goes stands on first) Now I want to put my courtesy runner in for my pitcher".

This is not considered a projected substitution.

[RPatrino]

How is the pitcher different then the catcher in this situation? If it would be as simple as you suggest then there would be no need for this passage in the BRD, right?

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

How is the pitcher different then the catcher in this situation? If it would be as simple as you suggest then there would be no need for this passage in the BRD, right?

The pitcher being re-entered is still the pitcher of record. No other player has pitched. The pinch hitter hasn't played at all. Even if he is going into the game as the pitcher in the next half inning, he would be a projected substitution. This would work the same way with the catcher.

Consider this. Catcher hits for himself and gets a single. You allow a courtesy runner. Defense replaces catcher when they come out for the next half inning. What penalty would you impose? None. Basically, it's the same concept as re-entering the catcher/pitcher who has re-entry. They were the last ones to play the position.

Somebody always has to be the catcher or pitcher of record by the rules. FED just doesn't state who has to be the catcher of record in the top of the first. However, I would allow only one for the same spot in the batting order until three outs are made. Maybe I would be right by rule, maybe I would be wrong.

You just need to know what a projected substitution is to properly administer the courtesy runner rule. Courtesy runners are married to the position, not the spot in the batting order.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

How is the pitcher different then the catcher in this situation? If it would be as simple as you suggest then there would be no need for this passage in the BRD, right?

There's no difference between the pitcher and the cather in this rule.

The point is that you can have a CR for F1 or F2, you can't have one for a PH.

Take this series (and F1 is interchangeable with F2 in this):

Starting F1 bats in the second and reaches base. CR1 enters to run. Legal.

F1 continues to pitch.

Later in the game, S1 pinch-hits for F1 in the fourth and reaches base. Coach wants CR1 to run. Not allowed. Instead, coach re-enters starting F1, and then has CR1 run. Legal. S1 is now out of the game and cannot reenter.

F1 continues to pitch.

Later in the game, S2 pinch-hits for F1 in the seventh and reaches base. Coach wants CR1 to run. Not allowed. Coach wants F1 to re-enter and then use CR1. Not allowed (F1 has already reeentered). Instead, coach has CR1 enter the game for S2 to run. Legal. S2 and F1 are now out of the game and cannot reenter. CR1 is now in the game, batting in F1's spot. CR1 cannot courtesy run for the remainder of the game.

[RPatrino]

All I can say is I'm glad this never happens in a real game!!!

My last question on the subject, then back to my corner.

Because the F1 is still the 'pitcher of record' (because no one has picked up the ball and thrown a warm-up pitch) he can be re-entered while the team is still at bat and that DOES NOT constitute a projected substitution?

BRD Sitch is different because the F2 is NO LONGER the F2 of record because of the substitute who batted for him, he can't be re-entered while the team is still at bat becuase that IS a projected substitution, and defensive changes must be made while the team is on defense??

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

All I can say is I'm glad this never happens in a real game!!!

My last question on the subject, then back to my corner.

Because the F1 is still the 'pitcher of record' (because no one has picked up the ball and thrown a warm-up pitch) he can be re-entered while the team is still at bat and that DOES NOT constitute a projected substitution?

BRD Sitch is different because the F2 is NO LONGER the F2 of record because of the substitute who batted for him, he can't be re-entered while the team is still at bat becuase that IS a projected substitution, and defensive changes must be made while the team is on defense??

Sigh....

In the BRD situation, the coach is attempting to use a CR for the SUB (PH), not for the catcher. That's why it's not allowed.

In your two plays above, F1 can re-enter and then have a CR, and F2 can re-enter and then have a CR. Neither of these is the play that is "not allowed" in the BRD.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Sigh....

In the BRD situation, the coach is attempting to use a CR for the SUB (PH), not for the catcher. That's why it's not allowed.

In your two plays above, F1 can re-enter and then have a CR, and F2 can re-enter and then have a CR. Neither of these is the play that is "not allowed" in the BRD.

Just off the top of my head, wouldn't these two times be the only ones that are not projected substitutions? (F1 and F2 re-enter after being PH for)