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Old Fri Jun 15, 2007, 10:53pm
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Question Re-entry/courtesy

NFHS rules. #25 pinch hits for the pitcher #5 to begin an inning, and gets a base hit. Can the coach re-enter #5, and after the ball becomes live, call time and insert #13 as a courtesy runner?
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Old Fri Jun 15, 2007, 11:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriggerMN
NFHS rules. #25 pinch hits for the pitcher #5 to begin an inning, and gets a base hit. Can the coach re-enter #5, and after the ball becomes live, call time and insert #13 as a courtesy runner?
Yes. I don't believe the ball has to become live to insert the courtesy runner though. They just run a relay from the dugout to the base. A mere formality.
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Old Fri Jun 15, 2007, 11:52pm
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Not sure about this but I wouldn't allow a courtesy runner for a player who has not yet been a pitcher.
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Old Sat Jun 16, 2007, 12:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir
Not sure about this but I wouldn't allow a courtesy runner for a player who has not yet been a pitcher.
The pitcher was being re-entered. He remains the pitcher of record. Nobody else has pitched. Now you wouldn't allow a courtesy runner for the pinch hitter if they said he was going to be the pitcher when the defense comes out. That is a projected substitution and not allowed.

The same applies for the catcher as well. The wording is a little different in that it doesn't necessarily apply to who is specifically the catcher in the top of the first inning as the pitcher is designated on the line up card. Special rules apply to his removal.
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Old Sat Jun 16, 2007, 01:07am
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You're right, I misread the the OP
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Old Sat Jun 16, 2007, 11:41am
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Can the pitcher be re-inserted as the pitcher while the team is still at bat? I don't think so, as projected substitutions aren't allowed in FED, right? So, the pitcher needs to be rentered after the half inning is over.

#25 entered the game for #5 the current pitcher of record. #5 is no longer the pitcher of record, actually #25 is? #5 the is re-entered as the pitcher and a courtesy runner is inserted?

Now i'm confused.
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Old Sat Jun 16, 2007, 01:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPatrino
Can the pitcher be re-inserted as the pitcher while the team is still at bat? I don't think so, as projected substitutions aren't allowed in FED, right? So, the pitcher needs to be rentered after the half inning is over.

#25 entered the game for #5 the current pitcher of record. #5 is no longer the pitcher of record, actually #25 is? #5 the is re-entered as the pitcher and a courtesy runner is inserted?

Now i'm confused.
#25 didn't pitch. He was only a pinch hitter. #5 re-entered and was still the only and last person to throw a pitch. Courtesy runners run for the position not the spot in the batting order. Until #5 is actually removed from the mound on defense is he considered the pitcher of record in a case like this.

You are correct that the pitcher doesn't actually have to take the mound to start the next inning. It could be a position player or a new pitcher off the bench.
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Last edited by Steven Tyler; Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 12:06pm.
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Old Sat Jun 16, 2007, 03:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tyler
Yes. I don't believe the ball has to become live to insert the courtesy runner though. They just run a relay from the dugout to the base. A mere formality.
This is correct. There's a specific FED interp on this that has been posted several times on this and other web sites.
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Old Sat Jun 16, 2007, 06:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriggerMN
NFHS rules. #25 pinch hits for the pitcher #5 to begin an inning, and gets a base hit. Can the coach re-enter #5, and after the ball becomes live, call time and insert #13 as a courtesy runner?
Very awkward substitution, but I see no reason to not permit it. #5 is the pitcher of record and he was re-entered to he can use a courtesy runner. Courtesy runner would most likely enter the game during a called time out for the purpose of entering a courtesy runner. If time had not been called #5 is subject to be tagged out off a bag or called out for abandonment.
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Old Sat Jun 16, 2007, 07:17pm
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California does not use the courtesy runner option.
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Old Sun Jun 17, 2007, 09:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
This is correct. There's a specific FED interp on this that has been posted several times on this and other web sites.

This happened in my state tournament game on Friday which I plated. I gave them the okay to re-enter the pitcher, then courtesy run (without making the ball live). Crew chief came in and told me it was not allowed, so we disallowed the substitution. We asked our observer about it after the game. He said he was not sure on the rule, but we did the right thing "in the spirit of the game."

Heck, it was my first state tournament, I just wanted to get the thing right.
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Old Sun Jun 17, 2007, 09:59am
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The NFHS publishes a "Rules by Topic" book every year. It discusses the courtesy runner and how they are allowed to be used. I buy them at the annual state meeting for I think $6 or $9 dollars. This book covers all of the situations very well and explains what is allowed.
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Old Sun Jun 17, 2007, 11:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliej47
The NFHS publishes a "Rules by Topic" book every year. It discusses the courtesy runner and how they are allowed to be used. I buy them at the annual state meeting for I think $6 or $9 dollars. This book covers all of the situations very well and explains what is allowed.
So what does it say about this particular situation ?
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2007, 09:52am
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What you have to look at is the pitching rule. You have #5 as the Pitcher of Record. #25 comes is as a substitute and bats for #5. #5 re-enters for #25. Number #25 never pitches to anybody so he can not be a pitcher during this game. With #5 on-base, the coach can now enter a courtesy runner, number #13 for #5. As stated the courtesy runner is for the position, not the person. You have to decide did they violate the pitching rule, they did not violate the courtesy runner rule. When you dis-allowed them that option, you screwed the pooch.
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Old Mon Jun 18, 2007, 11:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliej47
What you have to look at is the pitching rule. You have #5 as the Pitcher of Record. #25 comes is as a substitute and bats for #5. #5 re-enters for #25. Number #25 never pitches to anybody so he can not be a pitcher during this game. With #5 on-base, the coach can now enter a courtesy runner, number #13 for #5.
The rules are the rules and if that's how they're interpreted then so be it, but it goes against the intent.

The courtesy runner rule for F1 and F2 is a speed up rule and intended to get F1 and F2 on the diamond quicker after their offensive half inning.
In this situation #5, by rule, cannot pitch the next half inning so the courtesy runner rule is written badly if it allows this to happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by charliej47
:As stated the courtesy runner is for the position, not the person. You have to decide did they violate the pitching rule, they did not violate the courtesy runner rule. When you dis-allowed them that option, you screwed the pooch.
He may have "screwed the pooch" relative to the letter of the rule, but upheld the intent of the rule.
Which is more important?
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