Re-entry/courtesy

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

The rules are the rules and if that's how they're interpreted then so be it, but it goes against the intent.

The courtesy runner rule for F1 and F2 is a speed up rule and intended to get F1 and F2 on the diamond quicker after their offensive half inning.
In this situation #5, by rule, cannot pitch the next half inning so the courtesy runner rule is written badly if it allows this to happen.

Why can't #5 pitch the next inning?

The exact play (well, they didn't use numbers 5 and 25), was in the FED 2005 interps. It's legal.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Why can't #5 pitch the next inning?

The exact play (well, they didn't use numbers 5 and 25), was in the FED 2005 interps. It's legal.

Bob,

I didn't have my rules with me and I'm sorry if I misspoke.
I thought that if F1 came out of the game he could not reenter as F1.
Is that only if he is removed while on defense as opposed to this sitch where another F1 has not pitched?

[Rich Ives]

Bob Jenkins posted the following on the ABUA site


3.1.1N: "Therefore, a courtesy runner should onlybe allowed to run for the player who was the catcher on defense before coming to bat."

FED 2005 Interps, Situation 2: In the home half of the third inning, Team A's catcher is legally pinch-hit for by S1. S1 draws a walk, and the coach legally re-enters the catcher. Now, with the catcher on first base, the home team's coach requests and uses a courtesy runner for the catcher. RULING: This is a legal use of the courtesy runner.




While this is about the catcher, the situation would seem to apply to the pitcher also.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Bob,

I didn't have my rules with me and I'm sorry if I misspoke.
I thought that if F1 came out of the game he could not reenter as F1.
Is that only if he is removed while on defense as opposed to this sitch where another F1 has not pitched?

The only way F1 cannot return to F1 is if he's removed from the mound for excessive visits, if the reliever requires more than 8 warmups, he doesn't face one batter (or the side is retired), or he's left the game and doesn't have reentry priveleges. (and, in some statess, if it would violate the innings pitched rules).

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Bob Jenkins posted the following on the ABUA site


3.1.1N: "Therefore, a courtesy runner should onlybe allowed to run for the player who was the catcher on defense before coming to bat."

FED 2005 Interps, Situation 2: In the home half of the third inning, Team A's catcher is legally pinch-hit for by S1. S1 draws a walk, and the coach legally re-enters the catcher. Now, with the catcher on first base, the home team's coach requests and uses a courtesy runner for the catcher. RULING: This is a legal use of the courtesy runner.




While this is about the catcher, the situation would seem to apply to the pitcher also.

That's where I'm confused.
F2 can leave the game and legally reenter as F2 therefore for the purpose of the courtesy runner it makes sense, however if F1 leaves the game I didn't think he could re enter as F1. My earlier post asked the ?, can F1 leave the game in his offensive half of the inning and re enter as F1 in the following defensive half inning?

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The only way F1 cannot return to F1 is if he's removed from the mound for excessive visits, if the reliever requires more than 8 warmups, he doesn't face one batter (or the side is retired), or he's left the game and doesn't have reentry priveleges. (and, in some statess, if it would violate the innings pitched rules).

Sorry I stepped on you.

I'm totally off the mark then.
Let me get this straight

If on his first visit the coach removes F1(#5) from the game in the first inning, does not switch positions, but removes from the game, he can then reenter #5 in the 5th inning as F1? (as long as any of the above exceptions were not met.)

I'm glad I wasn't faced with that because I would have screwed it up.
For some reason I thought that once F1 left the game he could not re enter as F1 and the exceptions were only if F1(#5) stayed in the game and later wanted to move back to F1 position.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

If on his first visit the coach removes F1(#5) from the game in the first inning, does not switch positions, but removes from the game, he can then reenter #5 in the 5th inning as F1? (as long as any of the above exceptions were not met.)

Yes.

I'm glad I wasn't faced with that because I would have screwed it up.
For some reason I thought that once F1 left the game he could not re enter as F1 and the exceptions were only if F1(#5) stayed in the game and later wanted to move back to F1 position.

Maybe OH has a state adoption rule to this effect, but it's not the FED rule.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Maybe OH has a state adoption rule to this effect, but it's not the FED rule.

Ohio has no such rule AFAIK.

[RPatrino]

I'm looking at the 2006 BRD, section 467, where it states in notes, "Since projected substitutions are not allowed, a coach may not, for example, pinch hit for his catcher and then, if he gets on base, send out a courtesy runner for the pinch hitter". How does this differ with the pitcher vs. catcher?

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

I'm looking at the 2006 BRD, section 467, where it states in notes, "Since projected substitutions are not allowed, a coach may not, for example, pinch hit for his catcher and then, if he gets on base, send out a courtesy runner for the pinch hitter". How does this differ with the pitcher vs. catcher?

Because he re-entered the pitcher/catcher before he sent the courtesy runner in.

Coach pinch hits for pitcher who gets on base via a single.

Coach: "Time re-enter my pitcher for the pinch hitter who is on first. (pitcher goes stands on first) Now I want to put my courtesy runner in for my pitcher".

This is not considered a projected substitution.

[RPatrino]

How is the pitcher different then the catcher in this situation? If it would be as simple as you suggest then there would be no need for this passage in the BRD, right?

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

How is the pitcher different then the catcher in this situation? If it would be as simple as you suggest then there would be no need for this passage in the BRD, right?

The pitcher being re-entered is still the pitcher of record. No other player has pitched. The pinch hitter hasn't played at all. Even if he is going into the game as the pitcher in the next half inning, he would be a projected substitution. This would work the same way with the catcher.

Consider this. Catcher hits for himself and gets a single. You allow a courtesy runner. Defense replaces catcher when they come out for the next half inning. What penalty would you impose? None. Basically, it's the same concept as re-entering the catcher/pitcher who has re-entry. They were the last ones to play the position.

Somebody always has to be the catcher or pitcher of record by the rules. FED just doesn't state who has to be the catcher of record in the top of the first. However, I would allow only one for the same spot in the batting order until three outs are made. Maybe I would be right by rule, maybe I would be wrong.

You just need to know what a projected substitution is to properly administer the courtesy runner rule. Courtesy runners are married to the position, not the spot in the batting order.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

How is the pitcher different then the catcher in this situation? If it would be as simple as you suggest then there would be no need for this passage in the BRD, right?

There's no difference between the pitcher and the cather in this rule.

The point is that you can have a CR for F1 or F2, you can't have one for a PH.

Take this series (and F1 is interchangeable with F2 in this):

Starting F1 bats in the second and reaches base. CR1 enters to run. Legal.

F1 continues to pitch.

Later in the game, S1 pinch-hits for F1 in the fourth and reaches base. Coach wants CR1 to run. Not allowed. Instead, coach re-enters starting F1, and then has CR1 run. Legal. S1 is now out of the game and cannot reenter.

F1 continues to pitch.

Later in the game, S2 pinch-hits for F1 in the seventh and reaches base. Coach wants CR1 to run. Not allowed. Coach wants F1 to re-enter and then use CR1. Not allowed (F1 has already reeentered). Instead, coach has CR1 enter the game for S2 to run. Legal. S2 and F1 are now out of the game and cannot reenter. CR1 is now in the game, batting in F1's spot. CR1 cannot courtesy run for the remainder of the game.

[RPatrino]

All I can say is I'm glad this never happens in a real game!!!

My last question on the subject, then back to my corner.

Because the F1 is still the 'pitcher of record' (because no one has picked up the ball and thrown a warm-up pitch) he can be re-entered while the team is still at bat and that DOES NOT constitute a projected substitution?

BRD Sitch is different because the F2 is NO LONGER the F2 of record because of the substitute who batted for him, he can't be re-entered while the team is still at bat becuase that IS a projected substitution, and defensive changes must be made while the team is on defense??

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

All I can say is I'm glad this never happens in a real game!!!

My last question on the subject, then back to my corner.

Because the F1 is still the 'pitcher of record' (because no one has picked up the ball and thrown a warm-up pitch) he can be re-entered while the team is still at bat and that DOES NOT constitute a projected substitution?

BRD Sitch is different because the F2 is NO LONGER the F2 of record because of the substitute who batted for him, he can't be re-entered while the team is still at bat becuase that IS a projected substitution, and defensive changes must be made while the team is on defense??

Sigh....

In the BRD situation, the coach is attempting to use a CR for the SUB (PH), not for the catcher. That's why it's not allowed.

In your two plays above, F1 can re-enter and then have a CR, and F2 can re-enter and then have a CR. Neither of these is the play that is "not allowed" in the BRD.