Critique, Please

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

"This guy's dead."

"Cross him off the list then."

One of my favorite movies.

Craig, regardless of where the pitches are, doesn't it seem at least somewhat odd to you that the player that caused a host of problems last game is beaned three times in a row in your game?

[SAump]

4. Pitchers who hit three (3) batters in one game must be removed from the mound and cannot return to pitch in that game.

Your league president must now decide if the rule is worth adopting or not.
I never understood why a hitter would take a HBP off the hand, wrist or elbow. I would simply tell them to raise their arm out of the way.
A batter should not be allowed to wear elbow protection. They shouldn't be taught to dig in so close, nor to accept the rewards.
Yet, it may be better not to even say anything to the players who can't get out of the way. I enjoy teasing them after the laugh.

[DG]

Adult baseball sucks, current case under discussion is example. They just can't control themselves and the league administration will not either. After 3 years of this I stopped doing adult baseball.

[UmpJM]

This is pretty much my first year of umpiring.

Being one of the "rookies" in my association, I don't get the "better" games.

Most (approx. 70%) of the games, I work solo.

Despite having read the "horror stories" on this (and other) website(s), I started signing up for some MSBL games (25+ & 38 +; 7 so far), primarily because it gave me the opportunity to work 2-man games.

So far there have been a couple of "iffy situations" in the games I've done. Not nearly as bad as I had expected.

So far.

JM

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=CraigD]Thanks for the replies guys.

Mr. Booth, the reason that no one filed suit is that Israel isn't America and people don't usually run to court because they had an argument with someone. We don't have jury trials here, so we don't have the kinds of outrageous awards that seem to be regularly handed out in the US, thus people are less inclined to run to court.

You did not mention an argument

here's what you said

Player rushes on to field with a bat.

In the US a bat (not used for it's intended purpose meaning to hit a baseball) can be classified as a weapon especially when someone is mad. It's no different than a knife or a gun. This is not the normal type argument that you have in a baseball game. When someone rushes onto the field with a bat IMO that's serious business. This is not about some frivilous award that you are referring to.

When I said file charges I meant criminal charges.

If you tolerate a player rushing onto the field with a bat that's your business. Hopefully, in the future no official will be hurt because some wanna be has been takes his frustrations out on the official with a bat.

Pete Booth

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by Welpe

One of my favorite movies.

Craig, regardless of where the pitches are, doesn't it seem at least somewhat odd to you that the player that caused a host of problems last game is beaned three times in a row in your game?

Welpe, it does seem odd, but I live in a part of the world where odd is normal. The abilities, or lack thereof, of the players in question, the pressure of "what happened last time," the location of the pitch, and my knowledge of the players all lead me to conclude the HBP's were not intentional - none of them.

I understand that is difficult, if not impossible, for some of you who work a different quality of baseball in a different place to believe the HBP's weren't intentional. I knew that coming into the discussion.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by SAump

4. Pitchers who hit three (3) batters in one game must be removed from the mound and cannot return to pitch in that game.

SAump,

Definately a rule that should be considered for our amateur league. However, in the case under discussion three different pitchers hit the batter.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

You did not mention an argument

I did mention an argument - I described what happened prior to the bat being brought onto the field.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

In the US a bat (not used for it's intended purpose meaning to hit a baseball) can be classified as a weapon especially when someone is mad. It's no different than a knife or a gun. This is not the normal type argument that you have in a baseball game. When someone rushes onto the field with a bat IMO that's serious business. This is not about some frivilous award that you are referring to.

When I said file charges I meant criminal charges.

My point was that, Israel isn't the United States. Then I tried to contrast one of the ways we are different: In my opinion, the United States has become an overly litigious society and at even the slightest offense people run to the police or courts to complain. I think much of this is the result of bizzare financial rewards handed out by juries. (I know there are some lawyers in this community and they may have a different opinion.) Israelis, in general, are much less prone to go to court or the police (therefore, by default, I consider them more tolerant), and I think this is a result of having only judges hear cases. It's not a perfect system, but it is what we have here.

The culture here tends to be more animated and what is considered a normal conversation, would be considered an argument or worse in the USA.

NOTE: I'm not suggesting that brandishing a baseball bat is a normal part of discourse, even here. However, an interesting contrast between our two worlds is that, to my knowledge, no one at the game considered calling the police to manage this situation. It was an "in house" issue. Clearly, some thought the one game suspension was too light, but they were mainly on the opposing team.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

If you tolerate a player rushing onto the field with a bat that's your business. Hopefully, in the future no official will be hurt because some wanna be has been takes his frustrations out on the official with a bat.
Pete Booth

Hold on Pete, I never said I tolerate a player rushing onto the field. Disagree with me, but don't try to make me something I'm not. I wasn't at the game when the player brought the bat onto the field, so I had nothing to do with that incident.

Not in the incident under discussion nor, to my knowledge, any other time has a baseball umpire in Israel felt physically threatened. Thankfully, that's not our world. Yet. We have other problems, but assualts on umpires hasn't yet become one of them.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by LMan

Ha!


"Hey, what league did you pitch in last season?"

"California Penal."

Dorn: "Hmmm.... never heard of that one".

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by CraigD

I did mention an argument - I described what happened prior to the bat being brought onto the field.

Thank God



Right from the OP

[QUOTE]The pitcher bolted from the mound toward the coach and was tackled by his third baseman. Shortly after A got their pitcher to the dugout, he ran back onto the field with a bat,

One more for me because I simply do not understand your logic.

Here's the question for you. In the heat of the moment if this player was not tackled by someone etc. What were his attentions by bolting onto the field with a bat? What was he going to do with that bat? Obviosuly it was not to hit a baseball. At that moment the players intentions were most likely to cause harm otherwise why rush onto the field with a bat.

IMO, that player is lucky at least if this were the US that criminal charges were not pressed.

Also, it is a flat out joke to only have a one game suspension for this act.

Pete Booth

[CraigD]

Mr. Booth,

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

[/B]

One more for me because I simply do not understand your logic.

You're making this harder than necessary. The two societies we are comparing are different. That's all. I have no doubt that in America, it is likely that the police would have been called, or a civil suit filed later. However, that isn't the normal way of handling things here, and it hasn't always been that way in America either. If I'm not mistaken, you are old enough and experienced enough to know that there was a time in America when every guy brandishing a baseball bat with the intent to harm wasn't prosecuted. If his team mates tackled him and settled him down and nobody was hurt, it was over with. That's what happened here. End of story.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Here's the question for you. In the heat of the moment if this player was not tackled by someone etc. What were his attentions by bolting onto the field with a bat? What was he going to do with that bat? Obviosuly it was not to hit a baseball. At that moment the players intentions were most likely to cause harm otherwise why rush onto the field with a bat.

I gather from those who were there that had he not been tackled he likely would have caused great harm to the opposing team's coach. Thankfully, it didn't get that far and, in the end, no one was hurt.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

IMO, that player is lucky at least if this were the US that criminal charges were not pressed.

Also, it is a flat out joke to only have a one game suspension for this act.

On these two points we are in total agreement.

All that's left now is to get through the final game tomorrow evening without an incident. I have the plate again and will likely start the game with an official warning.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Despite having read the "horror stories" on this (and other) website(s), I started signing up for some MSBL games (25+ & 38 +; 7 so far), primarily because it gave me the opportunity to work 2-man games.

So far there have been a couple of "iffy situations" in the games I've done. Not nearly as bad as I had expected.

So far.

JM

My first "adult" summer game I did the dish and had a no-hitter. Both coaches said I did a great job. Second game of that DH we had 5 ejections. I learned from BOTH situations why some coaches and players carry the title "rats".

JJ

[DG]

Originally Posted by CraigD

However, that isn't the normal way of handling things here, and it hasn't always been that way in America either. If I'm not mistaken, you are old enough and experienced enough to know that there was a time in America when every guy brandishing a baseball bat with the intent to harm wasn't prosecuted. If his team mates tackled him and settled him down and nobody was hurt, it was over with. That's what happened here. End of story.

I don't remember a time when a bat swinging guy was not hauled away. Whether he was prosecuted afterwards is out of my hands.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Mr. Booth,

If I'm not mistaken, you are old enough and experienced enough to know that there was a time in America when every guy brandishing a baseball bat with the intent to harm wasn't prosecuted. If his team mates tackled him and settled him down and nobody was hurt, it was over with. That's what happened here. End of story.

Anyone threatening bodily harm with a baseball bat is removed from the game immediately. In most most leagues, he will receive additional penalties. I've never seen it played out as you suggest.

As far as "prosecution" goes, that will depend on the wishes of the victim.

Bottom line, by any standard, you let too much go in your games.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Anyone threatening bodily harm with a baseball bat is removed from the game immediately. In most most leagues, he will receive additional penalties.

That is exactly what happened. Most have said that the additional penalty he received was too light. No argument from me about that.

Originally Posted by GarthB

I've never seen it played out as you suggest.

Well, I guess your experiences have been different than mine.

I suppose none of you have ever seen an argument in a bar or pool hall in which one patron threatened another patron with a pool cue, but when things were stopped short of an actual physical altercation, everybody walked away without the intervention of the police or the courts.

I've seen the same kind of thing at baseball and softball games in the 70's and 80's in Texas and Oklahoma. Apparently, I grew up in a dramatically different environment than some of you.

Originally Posted by GarthB

Bottom line, by any standard, you let too much go in your games.

Thanks for your critique.