what's up with Div. 1 umps

[ggk]

i've recently adopted the "2 steps fair" for plays at first. you get a great look at the possible pulled foot from this angle. this is my first year doing college ball and i had play where F3 had to stretch for a throw and clearly came off the bag. i called the runner safe and sold it by indicating that F3 was off the bag. defensive coach went ballistic and demanded that i get help. i refused to do so for the reasons that have been previously stated. i had a great look at the play from 15-20 ft away. there was no way i could go to my partner for help on that play.
i know "get it right" is the mantra and i'm all for that, but is there any ncaa policy which requires us to confer on such a play just to keep a coach happy? i considered going to my partner and telling him that i have the call, but i just want to placate the coach - but i chose to stick it out and take the heat. the only downside for doing so is that you look stubborn and bullheaded in the eyes of the coach. is pride worth creating such an impression?

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by ggk

i considered going to my partner and telling him that i have the call, but i just want to placate the coach - but i chose to stick it out and take the heat. the only downside for doing so is that you look stubborn and bullheaded in the eyes of the coach. is pride worth creating such an impression?

And the downside of going to your partner just to please the coach is that now you've dragged him into the fire with you. If you're positive that you got the call right, tell the coach that. I'd rather seem bullheaded than give the coach a reason to take shots at my partner, IMO.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by ggk

is pride worth creating such an impression?

Yes.. ..........

[GarthB]

As many have argued in the past when the warm-fuzzy advocates repeated their "get it right, get it right, get it right" chant, there is no guarantee that the non-calling umpire who interjects his opinon has it right.

Funny how these same warmfuzzies become silent when we have so clear an example of why they are wrong.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by GarthB

As many have argued in the past when the warm-fuzzy advocates repeated their "get it right, get it right, get it right" chant, there is no guarantee that the non-calling umpire who interjects his opinon has it right.

Funny how these same warmfuzzies become silent when we have so clear an example of why they are wrong.

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

Pete:

I belong to the "Five Calls You Can Change" school. (I don't refer to it as Carl's list, because I've also heard it from professional umpires.)

However, even with some of these, a pulled foot, for example, I will not go to my partner if I'm 100% good with my call, and I have already made my call. Any help on this or a swipe tag, in my practice, must be requested before a call is made.

That said, a decision made to go to your partner, I believe, should result in your partner giving what he has, provided he feels 100% confident of his call. Even a 99% confidence factor should lead to his yielding to your call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Gath in order to stop this madness especially in a 2 person crew do you think our protocol has to change?

Ie; You and I have the game. I have the bases and you the dish. one of these swipe tag pulled foot plays is at first and I make an out call.

Coach is "screaming' for me to get help etc.

Now I Know I can basically tell him to "pound salt" but rather than be advisarial I appease the coach and ask you for help.

However, you simply "mirror" my call. If umpire associations in the "beginning" stuck togther and it became known that for all practical purposes the call stands, eventually coaches would get the message and stop asking us to get help.

Is it a good idea or not?

Thanks

Pete Booth

Why is telling him to pound sand adversarial yet him coming to you and trying to get you to shop your call NOT adversarial?

I told a coach a few weeks ago in a regional HS final on this VERY situation (pulled foot situation, I'm in A): One call, one umpire. He didn't like it. Tough noogies. He didn't ask again.

[TussAgee11]

But is there a place for asking for help in the realm of game management? Perhaps he wants a check swing appeal on something that was not even close. He is a known problem and will probably get upset if you don't give it to him. So you point to your partner, he gives the SAFE, and we go on. Seems to me that is avoiding a confrentation and not giving the appearance that you are looking for trouble as the umpire.

Just because he asks for help does not mean the call needs to change. I do understand the precedent it sets with that coach, and others, when you go for help on a pulled foot or swipe tag. My point is that in certain situations, from a game management perspective, it may not be a bad idea to make it look like you are discussing the call, even if you know it is not going to be reversed.

I'm not out to please coaches (trust me), but if I can squash a confrentation before it has a chance to stew, I'm all for it.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

But is there a place for asking for help in the realm of game management? Perhaps he wants a check swing appeal on something that was not even close. He is a known problem and will probably get upset if you don't give it to him. So you point to your partner, he gives the SAFE, and we go on. Seems to me that is avoiding a confrentation and not giving the appearance that you are looking for trouble as the umpire.

Just because he asks for help does not mean the call needs to change. I do understand the precedent it sets with that coach, and others, when you go for help on a pulled foot or swipe tag. My point is that in certain situations, from a game management perspective, it may not be a bad idea to make it look like you are discussing the call, even if you know it is not going to be reversed.

I'm not out to please coaches (trust me), but if I can squash a confrentation before it has a chance to stew, I'm all for it.

If, in a Fed game, not allowing an appeal on a check swing creates a confrontation then you're in for a possible long day. If as you say the coach is a known problem this is one of many opportunities to establish yourself quickly, let the coach know you're in charge and get on with it.
And if you're lucky this may give you an early opportunity to eliminate the known problem.
If I'm certain of a call I will not go to my P for help.
If my P agrees with me then all I've done is submitted to a coaches desire and set a precedent for the day and my call stands. No advantage to me.
If my P disagrees then I either have to change my call, which I am confident is right(not good in many ways) or keep the call as is and drag my P into the mess (not good)
The only advantage is that we may placate the coach for the moment but chances are good that we've only fed the little monster and he'll be coming back for more later.

[btdt]

" i considered going to my partner and telling him that i have the call, but i just want to placate the coach - but i chose to stick it out and take the heat. the only downside for doing so is that you look stubborn and bullheaded in the eyes of the coach. is pride worth creating such an impression?"

I consider it keeping control of the game, not "pride". If you let the coach dictate the actions of the umpire, might as well let him call the game for you from the bench. If you feel you need help, go for it. But don't let anyone else decide your actions