what's up with Div. 1 umps

[JRutledge]

This is the problem with the "ask for help" or "get it right" communities. If you have everyone talking after simply plays, you will have mistakes. Forget the D1 level, every damn play that was close in the games I was involved in coaches wanted help to be asked for. This has become an epidemic at all levels. Then we appease the coach for a play that should not be changed on any level.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is the problem with the "ask for help" or "get it right" communities. If you have everyone talking after simply plays, you will have mistakes. Forget the D1 level, every damn play that was close in the games I was involved in coaches wanted help to be asked for. This has become an epidemic at all levels. Then we appease the coach for a play that should not be changed on any level.

Peace

Can the umpires even say no to these help requests anymore?

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Can the umpires even say no to these help requests anymore?

Yes, an umpire can refuse to go to his partner. Here's an example:

Batter swings and the ball slowly rolls up the line towards third base and beats the throw to first. Defensive coach is granted time and comes to the PU.

C: Blue, that had to be foul, the ball contacted to batters foot.

PU: I've got a fair ball, I never saw the ball hit the batter's foot.

C: Can you get some help from your partner, he was looking in on the play and had a better angle?

PU: No coach, I'm not going to my partner on this one. That's an immediate call. Had my partner seen the ball hit the batter's foot, he would have killed the play had he seen it. Let's play ball coach.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

Yes, an umpire can refuse to go to his partner. Here's an example:

Batter swings and the ball slowly rolls up the line towards third base and beats the throw to first. Defensive coach is granted time and comes to the PU.

C: Blue, that had to be foul, the ball contacted to batters foot.

PU: I've got a fair ball, I never saw the ball hit the batter's foot.

C: Can you get some help from your partner, he was looking in on the play and had a better angle?

PU: No coach, I'm not going to my partner on this one. That's an immediate call. Had my partner seen the ball hit the batter's foot, he would have killed the play had he seen it. Let's play ball coach.

What about the pulled foot scenario (the original play)? I know at the D3 level, I would NOT have gotten help and would NOT have entertained the coach's request. Can the DI umpires working reg and super-reg refuse the request without repercussions from Yeast, et. al.?

If an umpire in A is getting help, why are we even hiring him?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Can the umpires even say no to these help requests anymore?

I do it all the time!

Coach - "Blue, you need to check with your partner on that".

Me - "Coach, I've got the call. If I needed help, I would have gotten it before I made the call. Let's get back to the game now!"

I rarely call a conference except on obstruction. That is one call where you may need the input of your PU. He is supposed to be watching the "big picture" in most cases so he can help place runners to the correct bases. Other than that, I'm within 20 feet of the call, why do I want to "huddle" with people that are 50 to 100 feet away?

Regards

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

I do it all the time!

Coach - "Blue, you need to check with your partner on that".

Me - "Coach, I've got the call. If I needed help, I would have gotten it before I made the call. Let's get back to the game now!"

I rarely call a conference except on obstruction. That is one call where you may need the input of your PU. He is supposed to be watching the "big picture" in most cases so he can help place runners to the correct bases. Other than that, I'm within 20 feet of the call, why do I want to "huddle" with people that are 50 to 100 feet away?

Regards

Ozzy, there is a special emphasis at the NCAA, and especially the Division I level, for "getting it right." So I'm specifically addressing that level.

I have no problems telling people to pound sand, where appropriate.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Ozzy, there is a special emphasis at the NCAA, and especially the Division I level, for "getting it right." So I'm specifically addressing that level.

I have no problems telling people to pound sand, where appropriate.

I realize that Rich. I have several D1 guys on our board and they agree. The "huddling" is getting out of hand. They only get together for certain things, not every other call (as the case has been).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

I realize that Rich. I have several D1 guys on our board and they agree. The "huddling" is getting out of hand. They only get together for certain things, not every other call (as the case has been).

Good, I'm happy to hear that.

I'm hoping that the overturning of correct calls slows down this practice in situations where it's clear that one umpire (and only one) has the best view of a play and the coaches still shop for their desired call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Can the umpires even say no to these help requests anymore?

I do all the time when I know my partner was not in position and when it is clear I have the call. For example if I am in the A position and there is a pulled foot or tag issue. I several times this year flat out told a coach I was not asking for help on these plays. I was not popular, but who cares. I am not in this for the popularity contest.

Peace

[LakeErieUmp]

Mr. Rutledge - while I often do not agree with you I would happily work with you! You're my kind of umpire!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

Mr. Rutledge - while I often do not agree with you I would happily work with you! You're my kind of umpire!

I agree, I applaud his stance on this. Me too.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do all the time when I know my partner was not in position and when it is clear I have the call. For example if I am in the A position and there is a pulled foot or tag issue. I several times this year flat out told a coach I was not asking for help on these plays. I was not popular, but who cares. I am not in this for the popularity contest.

Peace

A fellow D1 umpire was talking to me on the phone about this huddling for help thing, specifically about the pulled foot off first base play. My question to my friend Dave was, "Why the hell in a 4-man crew was the first base umpire getting help from his plate umpire? How could a first base ump in a 4-man crew blow this call anyway?"

In a 2-man or 3-man crew I can see this, because sometimes we have to make the call from the "B" or "C" position, where we are at a much greater disadvantage; but from the "A" position, there is no excuse for a guy not making this call correctly 100% of the time.

Me? I'm not going to ask for help on this. At all. Besides, I operate under the "change the umpire and not the call" philosophy: if I'm not sure (from the "B" or "C" positions) if a guy pulled his foot off the bag, I go to my partner before making the call to see if he saw F3 pull off. I've never had a problem doing it this way, because it's much better than making the call, then having to go to him afterward, only to reverse the call.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by UMP25

A fellow D1 umpire was talking to me on the phone about this huddling for help thing, specifically about the pulled foot off first base play. My question to my friend Dave was, "Why the hell in a 4-man crew was the first base umpire getting help from his plate umpire? How could a first base ump in a 4-man crew blow this call anyway?"

In a 2-man or 3-man crew I can see this, because sometimes we have to make the call from the "B" or "C" position, where we are at a much greater disadvantage; but from the "A" position, there is no excuse for a guy not making this call correctly 100% of the time.

Me? I'm not going to ask for help on this. At all. Besides, I operate under the "change the umpire and not the call" philosophy: if I'm not sure (from the "B" or "C" positions) if a guy pulled his foot off the bag, I go to my partner before making the call to see if he saw F3 pull off. I've never had a problem doing it this way, because it's much better than making the call, then having to go to him afterward, only to reverse the call.

I completely agree with you that if your 100% of a call, why bother getting together and discussing it. One of the first things your told when you become an umpire is trust your eyes and make your call based upon what you see. All of this "group discussion" re-inforces the opposite. If your not 100% then sure talk about it, otherwise, let's play ball!!!

Quick question with regards to going to partner before making the call, what if you don't have time to go to your partner. That is, F3 after possibly pulling his foot early off first throws home to get a play at home. What do you do with the call at first? Assume the foot was on and make the out call and then wait for the defense to discuss? Call the runner out and wait for the offense to complain? Certainly you wouldn't wait until the entire play ends before making this call.

[UMP25]

Good question. That is a play I've never had happen, which probably means it will happen to me now, and most likely when I'm working with Bob Jenkins.

Regardless, how much do you want to bet that I can get my partner to chime in quickly enough?

[dokeeffe]

Thanks for all the input on my original post. I think there is agreement for the most part. The "get it right" argument is going to lead to more issues than a whore in church. There are going to be days when even the best of us make a call of "out" at first and one split second later realize he was actually safe. Same thing for a third strike call that has an impact. If those have never happened to you, you haven't been on the field long. I hope no one thinks we should reverse ourselves in those situations.

The NCAA, FED and many others can learn a lesson from pros. Get in the best position you can, make the call, and in almost all instances, man up and stay with your call. If the coach thinks it's an ego thing because I won't go to my partner, it's just one more of his thoughts that I couldn't care less about.

I'll say it again, in both games, the D1 crews looked foolish. BTY in another of the super regionals, a coach comes out of the dugout, onto the field, screaming about a balk called against his pitcher. NO EJECTION! Why?????