ESPN: "Are ejections getting out of hand?"

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Hey, Morgan and McCarver know very little about the rules of baseball. Once in a while Morgan gets lucky and manages to get one right, but McCarver very, very rarely knows any except the most basic funadamental rules, and even those he butchers with regularity.

Yes, they played major league baseball, but that does not make them baseball experts. Most of us did play baseball too, and our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience. Those who have little or no umpiring experience typically do not know the rules to the degree that we do.

I'm not defending Joe or Tim's rule knowledge, but to say"... our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience"is IMO way too conceited an attitude.
An umpires knowledge of the rules is undoubtedly much higher, but there are many facets of the game and the rules are just one of them.
So define what you mean by "baseball experts"

There are pitchers that can watch a batter take practice swings and see the hole in their swing. I can't, so relative to the intricacies of pitching he is on a higher level than me and most of the rest of us umpires. There are batters that can spot tell tale signs from the pitcher and know what pitch is coming, sometimes as subtle as leg kick to belt buckle curve ball, leg kick above belt fast ball. I can't, so relative to spotting the idiosyncrocies (sp) of a pitcher they are on a much higher level than I am and I dare say most of us.
There are so many nuances to this game that no one is an expert in all areas, but when you play the game at the level Joe Morgan did for so many years I have a hard time thinking that just because I know the rules better means I'm on a higher level.
I'll bet Joe Morgans overall baseball knowledge far exceeds the vast majority of all umpires. His ability to transfer that knowledge, whether announcing is the right forum to communicate that knowledge and whether you like his style is another matter.
Let's not be like the rats and make irrational statements and think more highly of ourselves than deserved.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I'm not defending Joe or Tim's rule knowledge, but to say"... our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience"is IMO way too conceited an attitude.
An umpires knowledge of the rules is undoubtedly much higher, but there are many facets of the game and the rules are just one of them.
So define what you mean by "baseball experts"

There are pitchers that can watch a batter take practice swings and see the hole in their swing. I can't, so relative to the intricacies of pitching he is on a higher level than me and most of the rest of us umpires. There are batters that can spot tell tale signs from the pitcher and know what pitch is coming, sometimes as subtle as leg kick to belt buckle curve ball, leg kick above belt fast ball. I can't, so relative to spotting the idiosyncrocies (sp) of a pitcher they are on a much higher level than I am and I dare say most of us.
There are so many nuances to this game that no one is an expert in all areas, but when you play the game at the level Joe Morgan did for so many years I have a hard time thinking that just because I know the rules better means I'm on a higher level.
I'll bet Joe Morgans overall baseball knowledge far exceeds the vast majority of all umpires. His ability to transfer that knowledge, whether announcing is the right forum to communicate that knowledge and whether you like his style is another matter.
Let's not be like the rats and make irrational statements and think more highly of ourselves than deserved.

Thanks for bringing logical perspective to this argument.

As umpires we always cringe when players, coaches, fans, and broadcasters misunderstand or misapply a rule. But to call hall of fame and all star players "morons" when they make rule mistakes as broadcaters begs the question as what should we be called when we do the same thing?

After all it is our job to know the rulebook and the postion from which to make the best judgement on a play.

We have chosen to live a big glass house.

It serves no useful purpose for us to throw stones at those whose jobs require much more knowledge of the game than ours, unless of course, we are perfect in our profession.

[TussAgee11]

I honestly don't think that Joe or Tim have any more knowledge of baseball than I do. And if I was a commentator, I wouldn't say false things about players the way they do about rules.

So, Tim and Joe, here come the stones.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I honestly don't think that Joe or Tim have any more knowledge of baseball than I do. And if I was a commentator, I wouldn't say false things about players the way they do about rules.

So, Tim and Joe, here come the stones.

Wow.

Can you just hit the highlights of your major league all star appearances?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Wow.

Can you just hit the highlights of your major league all star appearances?

Wow. Playing the game at its highest level still does not give one any more knowledge of the game than does just having played the game at lower levels for many years. It just means that you were better at playing it. It is certainly not an indication of their rule interpretation abilities.

The only advantage Morgan, McCarver, or any other player or former player has is that they have more stories to tell.

Baseball is baseball, and the strategy varies little from the game I played until I was 30, and the game the big leaguers play. It's just the skill level that is extremely different.

I'll hit all my MLB All-Star appearance highlights when Joe and Tim match my umpiring experience. Joe Morgan claims he worked some ball while going to college, but you couldn't prove it by me.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Wow. Playing the game at its highest level still does not give one any more knowledge of the game than does just having played the game at lower levels for many years. It just means that you were better at playing it. It is certainly not an indication of their rule interpretation abilities.

The only advantage Morgan, McCarver, or any other player or former player has is that they have more stories to tell.

Baseball is baseball, and the strategy varies little from the game I played until I was 30, and the game the big leaguers play. It's just the skill level that is extremely different.

I'll hit all my MLB All-Star appearance highlights when Joe and Tim match my umpiring experience. Joe Morgan claims he worked some ball while going to college, but you couldn't prove it by me.

wow.

How many world series games have you umpired?

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

wow.

How many world series games have you umpired?

Wow.

So we have gone from how many All Star appearances someone has made as an MLB player (zero), to how many World Series games they have umpired (zero). Those two zeroes must invalidate everything about them.
Is there just no possibility for someone to be better or smarter than someone who is higher in rank???

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Wow.

Can you just hit the highlights of your major league all star appearances?

What the hell does that have to do with "knowledge" of anything?

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Wow.

Can you just hit the highlights of your major league all star appearances?

Explain how being a great ball player makes you knowledgable about baseball? Or not being a great ball player makes you less knowledgable. I sit down every night and watch my Yankees play (you can PM me if you want to flame me for being a Yanks fan) and see things going on in a game that the announcers don't discuss. I also don't see things that the announcers do discuss. Baseball is a complicated game, always stuff going on.

Tonight, A-Rod hits a lined shot to the wall, trots to first, then finally shifts gears but is called out at second. U1 inexplicably did not cut in on the play (U3 went out, U2 to third). A-Rod starts to whine, umpire says something and walks away, and then A-Rod yells something more. Umpire comes back in on him and they argue some. 1st base coach gets A-Rod to the dugout.

Dummie Paul O'Neill talks about how the call was wrong, A-Rod did what he had to do to get second, and the umpire was wrong for arguing back.

Guess 2,000 some hits really makes you understand baseball from the whining perspective, which I don't think most fans want to listen to.

Off soap box.

[UMP25]

There's a reason why the late Bart Giamatti once said that the smartest people on the field are the umpires.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by UMP25

There's a reason why the late Bart Giamatti once said that the smartest people on the field are the umpires.

Explain how being a great ball player makes you knowledgable about baseball? Or not being a great ball player makes you less knowledgable.


Well, gee. If you had a chance to talk baseball in Heaven with Ted Williams or Rudy Regalato, who would you choose?

Let me know when you are hired by Fox or ESPN. I am dying to hear your take on how major league umpires could take three innings to decide that a run scored before the final out of an inning, on a non-force, actually counted.

An anxious nation awaits.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Explain how being a great ball player makes you knowledgable about baseball? Or not being a great ball player makes you less knowledgable. I sit down every night and watch my Yankees play (you can PM me if you want to flame me for being a Yanks fan) and see things going on in a game that the announcers don't discuss. I also don't see things that the announcers do discuss. Baseball is a complicated game, always stuff going on.

Tonight, A-Rod hits a lined shot to the wall, trots to first, then finally shifts gears but is called out at second. U1 inexplicably did not cut in on the play (U3 went out, U2 to third). A-Rod starts to whine, umpire says something and walks away, and then A-Rod yells something more. Umpire comes back in on him and they argue some. 1st base coach gets A-Rod to the dugout.

Dummie Paul O'Neill talks about how the call was wrong, A-Rod did what he had to do to get second, and the umpire was wrong for arguing back.

Guess 2,000 some hits really makes you understand baseball from the whining perspective, which I don't think most fans want to listen to.

Off soap box.

U1 inexplicably did not cut in on the play (U3 went out, U2 to third).

Now what MLB crew butchered a play this bad that Paul O'Neill is such a dummie.

BTW-What umpire called A-Rod out at second? Sounds like no one was left at the base.

Not to worry. When the Rocket launches this Saturday against the lowly Pittsburgh Pirates, I sure the Yanks will be able hold off the surging Devil Rays for fourth place in the AL East. Third is even possible if the mightly Baltimore Orioles lose a middle reliever and the Toronto Blue Jays have to trade their back up catcher so they can bring up a set up man from Double AA.

Off soap box.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I honestly don't think that Joe or Tim have any more knowledge of baseball than I do.
So, Tim and Joe, here come the stones.

Tuss,
Here's a challenge.

Pick out the best high school coach in your area.
Now imagine spending one season as his assistant. Do you think you'd learn anything about the game? Or do you already know everything he does?

Now pick out the best division 1 coach you can think of.
Now imagine spending 1 season following him around. Do you think you'd learn anything about the game? Or do you already know it all?

Now imagine spending 9 years playing for a hall of fame MLB manager, multiple world series winner and throw in a couple coach of the year awards for good measure, let's say someone like, I don't know, say Sparky Anderson. Do you think you'd learn a little bit about the game or do you already know everything he does?

So throw the stones if you like but I'm telling you you're statement is born from ignorance.