ESPN: "Are ejections getting out of hand?"

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Ha! Good one! For a minute I thought you were being serious about these two clueless morons. Whew!

Thanks,

Let me know when you get hired.

[UMP25]

The fact I have brain cells precludes me from being hired as an ignorant, clueless announcer, as these two morons are.

Go hang out on the coaches' boards with your fellow rats, because no one who is a real umpire would ever state that McCarver and Morgan had even an ounce of intelligence.

[UMP25]

You might want to check out these:

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...ver#post402148

joe morgan off to a great start rules wise...

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...ver#post390018

The Official Tim McCarver Intelligence Thread

[UMP25]

Indeed. Took you 24 hours to come up with that? Weak.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Your quote can stand for itself, providing the rest of us can stand the smell.

Hey, Morgan and McCarver know very little about the rules of baseball. Once in a while Morgan gets lucky and manages to get one right, but McCarver very, very rarely knows any except the most basic funadamental rules, and even those he butchers with regularity.

Yes, they played major league baseball, but that does not make them baseball experts. Most of us did play baseball too, and our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience. Those who have little or no umpiring experience typically do not know the rules to the degree that we do.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Hey, Morgan and McCarver know very little about the rules of baseball. Once in a while Morgan gets lucky and manages to get one right, but McCarver very, very rarely knows any except the most basic funadamental rules, and even those he butchers with regularity.

Yes, they played major league baseball, but that does not make them baseball experts. Most of us did play baseball too, and our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience. Those who have little or no umpiring experience typically do not know the rules to the degree that we do.

I'm not defending Joe or Tim's rule knowledge, but to say"... our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience"is IMO way too conceited an attitude.
An umpires knowledge of the rules is undoubtedly much higher, but there are many facets of the game and the rules are just one of them.
So define what you mean by "baseball experts"

There are pitchers that can watch a batter take practice swings and see the hole in their swing. I can't, so relative to the intricacies of pitching he is on a higher level than me and most of the rest of us umpires. There are batters that can spot tell tale signs from the pitcher and know what pitch is coming, sometimes as subtle as leg kick to belt buckle curve ball, leg kick above belt fast ball. I can't, so relative to spotting the idiosyncrocies (sp) of a pitcher they are on a much higher level than I am and I dare say most of us.
There are so many nuances to this game that no one is an expert in all areas, but when you play the game at the level Joe Morgan did for so many years I have a hard time thinking that just because I know the rules better means I'm on a higher level.
I'll bet Joe Morgans overall baseball knowledge far exceeds the vast majority of all umpires. His ability to transfer that knowledge, whether announcing is the right forum to communicate that knowledge and whether you like his style is another matter.
Let's not be like the rats and make irrational statements and think more highly of ourselves than deserved.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I'm not defending Joe or Tim's rule knowledge, but to say"... our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience"is IMO way too conceited an attitude.
An umpires knowledge of the rules is undoubtedly much higher, but there are many facets of the game and the rules are just one of them.
So define what you mean by "baseball experts"

There are pitchers that can watch a batter take practice swings and see the hole in their swing. I can't, so relative to the intricacies of pitching he is on a higher level than me and most of the rest of us umpires. There are batters that can spot tell tale signs from the pitcher and know what pitch is coming, sometimes as subtle as leg kick to belt buckle curve ball, leg kick above belt fast ball. I can't, so relative to spotting the idiosyncrocies (sp) of a pitcher they are on a much higher level than I am and I dare say most of us.
There are so many nuances to this game that no one is an expert in all areas, but when you play the game at the level Joe Morgan did for so many years I have a hard time thinking that just because I know the rules better means I'm on a higher level.
I'll bet Joe Morgans overall baseball knowledge far exceeds the vast majority of all umpires. His ability to transfer that knowledge, whether announcing is the right forum to communicate that knowledge and whether you like his style is another matter.
Let's not be like the rats and make irrational statements and think more highly of ourselves than deserved.

Thanks for bringing logical perspective to this argument.

As umpires we always cringe when players, coaches, fans, and broadcasters misunderstand or misapply a rule. But to call hall of fame and all star players "morons" when they make rule mistakes as broadcaters begs the question as what should we be called when we do the same thing?

After all it is our job to know the rulebook and the postion from which to make the best judgement on a play.

We have chosen to live a big glass house.

It serves no useful purpose for us to throw stones at those whose jobs require much more knowledge of the game than ours, unless of course, we are perfect in our profession.

[TussAgee11]

I honestly don't think that Joe or Tim have any more knowledge of baseball than I do. And if I was a commentator, I wouldn't say false things about players the way they do about rules.

So, Tim and Joe, here come the stones.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I honestly don't think that Joe or Tim have any more knowledge of baseball than I do. And if I was a commentator, I wouldn't say false things about players the way they do about rules.

So, Tim and Joe, here come the stones.

Wow.

Can you just hit the highlights of your major league all star appearances?

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I honestly don't think that Joe or Tim have any more knowledge of baseball than I do.
So, Tim and Joe, here come the stones.

Tuss,
Here's a challenge.

Pick out the best high school coach in your area.
Now imagine spending one season as his assistant. Do you think you'd learn anything about the game? Or do you already know everything he does?

Now pick out the best division 1 coach you can think of.
Now imagine spending 1 season following him around. Do you think you'd learn anything about the game? Or do you already know it all?

Now imagine spending 9 years playing for a hall of fame MLB manager, multiple world series winner and throw in a couple coach of the year awards for good measure, let's say someone like, I don't know, say Sparky Anderson. Do you think you'd learn a little bit about the game or do you already know everything he does?

So throw the stones if you like but I'm telling you you're statement is born from ignorance.

[JR12]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Hey, Morgan and McCarver know very little about the rules of baseball. Once in a while Morgan gets lucky and manages to get one right, but McCarver very, very rarely knows any except the most basic funadamental rules, and even those he butchers with regularity.

Yes, they played major league baseball, but that does not make them baseball experts. Most of us did play baseball too, and our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience. Those who have little or no umpiring experience typically do not know the rules to the degree that we do.

Hall of famer, Jim Palmer used to do some local TV. He butchers rules all the time and always disagrees with the Umpires. Drives me crazy!

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Hey, Morgan and McCarver know very little about the rules of baseball. Once in a while Morgan gets lucky and manages to get one right, but McCarver very, very rarely knows any except the most basic funadamental rules, and even those he butchers with regularity.

Yes, they played major league baseball, but that does not make them baseball experts. Most of us did play baseball too, and our knowledge of the game is on a much higher level due to our umpiring experience. Those who have little or no umpiring experience typically do not know the rules to the degree that we do.

Steve, I guess it depends on how you define expert.

If I was going to send my son for hitting lessons and I had a choice between Joe West, Joe Morgan or a 50 yr old great veteran umpire that played rec ball till he was 30, after much deliberation I'd probably pick Morgan.
If I wanted to learn about the strategies and secrets of infield play I'd pick Joe Morgan over Dana DeMuth.
If I was picking a mentor for my son, the catcher, and I had a choice between Tim McClelland and Tim McCarver I'm sorry I'd be picking McCarver.
If I wanted an indepth education on the nuances and strategies of the game of baseball I'd pick any MLB manager or player over any of the MLB umpires.

If I wanted to improve my umpire skills I'd pick any MLB, MiLB, NCAA, or Fed veteran umpire over any ball player or coach.

I agree that most Fed and above umps know more about the rules than do Tim and Joe, but that's as far as it goes.
McCarver was successfully calling pitches for many years. He had to know hitters and tendancies, he had to adjust to batters as the game progressed and new pitchers came in, he was the field manager. You don't have a successful 20 year career in MLB as a catcher and be a dummy.
It's just like the NFL, you don't have to the brightest bulb on the team if you're playing nose tackle as long as you have great athletic skills, but skills will only get you so far at QB, eventually you have to show you're capable of grasping the mental side of the game.

Like him or not, he knows more about the game than 99.9% of the crowd.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Steve, I guess it depends on how you define expert.

If I was going to send my son for hitting lessons and I had a choice between Joe West, Joe Morgan or a 50 yr old great veteran umpire that played rec ball till he was 30, after much deliberation I'd probably pick Morgan.
If I wanted to learn about the strategies and secrets of infield play I'd pick Joe Morgan over Dana DeMuth.
If I was picking a mentor for my son, the catcher, and I had a choice between Tim McClelland and Tim McCarver I'm sorry I'd be picking McCarver.
If I wanted an indepth education on the nuances and strategies of the game of baseball I'd pick any MLB manager or player over any of the MLB umpires.

If I wanted to improve my umpire skills I'd pick any MLB, MiLB, NCAA, or Fed veteran umpire over any ball player or coach.

I agree that most Fed and above umps know more about the rules than do Tim and Joe, but that's as far as it goes.
McCarver was successfully calling pitches for many years. He had to know hitters and tendancies, he had to adjust to batters as the game progressed and new pitchers came in, he was the field manager. You don't have a successful 20 year career in MLB as a catcher and be a dummy.
It's just like the NFL, you don't have to the brightest bulb on the team if you're playing nose tackle as long as you have great athletic skills, but skills will only get you so far at QB, eventually you have to show you're capable of grasping the mental side of the game.

Like him or not, he knows more about the game than 99.9% of the crowd.

If I want to take batting lessons, I would go to Tony Gwynn. And, I took Coaching Baseball in college from renowned D-1 coach Jim Dietz of SDSU (before Tony Gwynn). All that on top of playing for X number of years. I readily admit that I can't hit like Tony Gwynn, coach like Jim Dietz, or play at any level resembling a major leaguer.

I played Varsity golf in HS, make custom golf clubs, and have a great knowledge of the sport of golf. Yet I can't come anywhere close to playing at Tiger Woods' level. But I could do a better job of broadcasting golf than Brent Musberger for sure.

But the subject here to start with was baseball rules knowledge, and the lack thereof on the part of Morgan and McCarver (and let's throw in Jim Palmer and Harold Reynolds while we're at it). These guys know how to play baseball better than we ever could, but they are horrible as broadcasters, because they don't study the rules of the game to the same degree as we do. They can be great color commentators, but then they open their mouths and just spew out nonsense when it comes to the rules. It has been well documented. I'm not making anything up here.

As long as we stick to the subject, which was rules butchering by Morgan and McCarver, we all must agree that these two know less overall about baseball than we give them credit for. I don't think either knows more about the game itself (not talking about specialized areas, such as batting or catching) than the average person who has played the game. They just played it better, and at a much higher level.

SDS - I think the relevant point you made here is that although both Morgan and McCarver played for many years and were good at their respective positions, and their color commentary analysis about the finer points of the game is ok, the fact is when they start to quote rules is the time they need to shut up and go to a different topic.

It has nothing to do with playing, coaching , managing or teaching. They just never bothered to learn the rules the way umpires do. As far as either of them coaching is concerned, if they were that good they would be coaching now. Coaching isn't about knowledge and understanding - it's about taking that knowledge and imparting it to a player - verbalizing and/or demonstrating. Not everyone can do it, just like not everyone is cut out to be an umpire.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Your quote can stand for itself, providing the rest of us can stand the smell.

Wow. Made the ignore list in record time. Say hi to BigGuy and Dave the Rat when you see them.