Establishing Baseline

[tibear]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In this instance, second base is treated (nearly) the same as home plate. But, I don't think either is treated the way you want to treat it.

That is, BR is allowed to retreat toward home and R2 is allowed to retreat toward second. The difference is that BR is out if he reaches home; R2 is not out if he reaches second.



That's a good philosophy on the field. Here, though (and in most other discussions amongst umpires) we expect umpires to use the proper terminology.

Thanks for the answer Bob.

As for the terminology, I certainly agree that an umpire should use the correct terminology but in my opinion (for whatever that's worth ) noone should be dished simply because they used an incorrect term. The correct term should be stated and then the conversation continued. After all we're here to learn but to step on each other. Are we??

[Tim C]

So are you telling me how to post?

Regards,

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tibear

Thanks for the answer Bob.

As for the terminology, I certainly agree that an umpire should use the correct terminology but in my opinion (for whatever that's worth ) noone should be dished simply because they used an incorrect term. The correct term should be stated and then the conversation continued. After all we're here to learn but to step on each other. Are we??

There are different methods of teaching, and different methods of learning. Explaining that your sentence (or question -- whatever it was) is "wrong" is one way -- and can be effective. It forces you to try to figure out what was wrong and correct it. You learn on your own, and might jsut find something else in the book that you didn't know (or "knew" but was wrong).

[tibear]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There are different methods of teaching, and different methods of learning. Explaining that your sentence (or question -- whatever it was) is "wrong" is one way -- and can be effective. It forces you to try to figure out what was wrong and correct it. You learn on your own, and might jsut find something else in the book that you didn't know (or "knew" but was wrong).

I agree that if you explain that the sentence is wrong can be effective, but simply saying "I disagree" doesn't do anything.

What does he disagree with: the out call? The baseline established? The terminology used? The font used?

[tibear]

Tim,

I'm not telling you how to post. I am trying to let you know that I didn't think your post was helpful and that if you wanted me to learn, which I hope was the intent, that perhaps there are different ways of doing that.

I realize there is a lot of wisdom that is on this site and that is why I come here. I may ask some strange questions and sometimes use the wrong terminology but then again who's perfect and aren't strange questions the perfect thing for this forum?

If we only got the simple questions about basic rules, it would get boring very fast. However, realize that some of us haven't been umpiring for 30 years and are still trying to learn.

[Tim C]

Not all posts on this site are "helpful" (nee: dudeinblue, canadadump, and other HOF members).

When we started posting on these sites 10 years ago it was much like a bunch of guys sitting at a table having a cold adult beverage.

We could kid, attack, defend, parry and thrust.

We have lost that because some people take offense to every little thing.

I guess that is the modern world.

I will continue to post as I see fit. Not every thread is about learning.

I teach umpires statewide and I use my style.

You don't care for it . . . I can easily live with that.

Regards,

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tibear

I agree that if you explain that the sentence is wrong can be effective, but simply saying "I disagree" doesn't do anything.

I disagree.

Take this for what it's worth, but your recent posts remind me of the guy at camps / clinics who gets feedback and then responds with, "yeah, but ..."

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by tibear

Thanks for the answer Bob.

As for the terminology, I certainly agree that an umpire should use the correct terminology but in my opinion (for whatever that's worth ) noone should be dished simply because they used an incorrect term. The correct term should be stated and then the conversation continued. After all we're here to learn but to step on each other. Are we??

Thanks Ti. We were not aware that you had been crowned king of the forum. The rest of us will now follow your personal rules of internet umpire forum etiquette. To misquote Val Kilmer's Doc Holliday - "Your hypocrisy knows no bounds."

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by tibear

Thanks for the answer Bob.

As for the terminology, I certainly agree that an umpire should use the correct terminology but in my opinion (for whatever that's worth ) noone should be dished simply because they used an incorrect term. The correct term should be stated and then the conversation continued. After all we're here to learn but to step on each other. Are we??

The correct term is dissed.
From M-W.com:
Main Entry: dis
Pronunciation: 'dis
Variant(s): also diss
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): dissed; dis·sing
Etymology: short for disrespect
1 slang : to treat with disrespect or contempt : INSULT
2 slang : to find fault with : CRITICIZE

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Maybe there is a miscommunication.
When you say 'runs around F5' that seems to imply that he ran around to the outfield side and then went home. If R2 was judged not to exceed the 3 feet as he ran around then it is not an automatic out. The fact that he missed third while F5 was making his throw to F1 means nothing until an appeal is made.
If however, R2 veered to the inside when F5 attempted the tag and then continued directly toward home it seems fair to rule he went beyond his 3 feet and calling R2 out for leaving the baseline is a bit more obvious.

Just be aware of the "arm's length" call, in judging whether the runner exceeded the 3'.

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by tibear

Did I screw up by using the the abandonment? Yes!


I thought this was a forum where umpires could ask questions, shoot the sh#t, complain about coaches and players and ultimately learn something.

One thing you should learn: from THIS thread: is that words mean something, sometimes something very specific; and that it is a BAD idea, here or ON THE FIELD, to be careless about what words you use.

The method Tee used to help teach you that [yes, it is actually a method; I suspect he may even be aware of this] is the same one traditionally used to teach aspiring laywers, sometimes called the "Socratic" method [after Socrates]. The teacher asks questions and makes controversial assertions to force the student to think and examine the student's own ideas and assumptions, rather than simply spoon-feed info. The principal drawback of this method is that, for it to work, the student has to be both willing and able to understand and consider the question.

And no-one on this forum "owes" you anything.

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by tibear

Another question from another forum:

We all know that a baserunner establishes their baseline as a direct line between themselves and the possible bases they are allowed to run to, when the defense is attempting to tag them off base.

Situation: R2 with 0 out, ground ball hit to F5. R2 begins running to 3rd on hit and then meets F5 standing on the established baseline. R2 runs around F5 towards homeplate as F5 tries to tag the runner and then throws BR out at first. I think we can all agree that umpire will probably declare R2 is out for abandoning basepath and the play continues even without a "official" tag of R2. The assumption is that R2 must run directly towards any base they are entitled to, in this case 2nd or 3rd. R2 is out because he ran towards homeplate when F5 tried to tag him.

Questioning Situation: R1, R2 with 0 out, ground ball hit to F5. Everyone agrees that if R2 does the same as situation above he is automatically out without having to tag. However, in this situation, should second base be treated similar to homeplate in that R2 should not be entitled to run towards second base because he is forced to leave that base. Thus, if F5 now picks up the ball and runs towards R2 who is between F5 and 2nd base, the question is could you call R2 automatically out if he runs directly towards 2nd base(a base he is not entitled to)? Could the established baseline be only from the runner to his next base and not the previous base because of the force situation.

I've never called it this way and have never seen anyone else interpret the baseline as this but thought it was an interesting question.

OBR Rule quotes

7.08
Any runner is out when --
(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely; or (2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;

In our second situation, should R2 be able to attempt to reach second safely since he is was forced off it? If it is legal why should 2nd be treated differently then 1st or home, since the only base the runner is entitled to run to is third.

Just to be clear, I understand the rule but thought the "different perspective" on the rule was an interesting question.

"We all know that a baserunner establishes their baseline as a direct line between themselves and the possible bases they are allowed to run to, when the defense is attempting to tag them off base."

We all DON'T know, because a runner establishes her BASEPATH when attempting to reach a base. There are two BASELINES, (1) From home to first base, (2) From third base to home. They are marked by chalk or some other substance.

Bob

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

"We all know that a baserunner establishes their baseline as a direct line between themselves and the possible bases they are allowed to run to, when the defense is attempting to tag them off base."

We all DON'T know, because a runner establishes her BASEPATH when attempting to reach a base. There are two BASELINES, (1) From home to first base, (2) From third base to home. They are marked by chalk or some other substance.

Bob

Uh, wrong Bob.

There is no such thing as a "baseline" that is marked on any field. These are defined in Rule 1 as "foul lines." They are the two lines running from home plate to the outfield fence on the first and third base sides of the diamond. The only time the word "baseline" is used is in conjunction with a baserunner and his baseline. That is why Rule 7.08(a)(1) uses the term "baseline" when explaining the 3 feet rule. Baseline and basepath are interchangeable terms in this usage.

The runner establishes his/her own baseline, and it can be between any sets of bases. It is the position between the runner and the base that they are advancing or retreating to, at the time a tag attempt is being made on them.

[RPatrino]

Tibear, I think the problem is this statement, at least for me: "I think we can all agree that umpire will probably declare R2 is out for abandoning basepath". I can't agree that R2 should be called out for running out of the baseline, because I don't know which baseline he established.

Now, as far as using the correct terminology, that is very important in discussions regarding rules and how you interpret them. I would rather use a incorrect term here in this forum, take the heat for it amoungst friends and LEARN from it so I don't make the same mistake with a fire breathing coach in a real situation.

I learned a great deal starting out by having 'pre-game' meetings with my partners after every game. These were no holds barred at times, where I had to defend my actions on the field, whether it be a bad call, poor positioning, or a missed responsibility. These learning opportunities don't occur much now days, we rush to the game and rush right home.

This forum takes the place of those learning opportunities, don't waste them by arguing. Ask the questions, listen to the answers, take what you need, leave the rest and say thanks for the input.

[Al]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

Just be aware of the "arm's length" call, in judging whether the runner exceeded the 3'.

And I have seen good base-runners who were able slow down, dodge, change direction (without going more than 3 feet in either direction from the attempted tag,) and cause a defender to miss a tag even though he/she was standing directly in front of the base-runners established basepath at the time of the tag attempt.