Obtaining/Establishing a legal guarding position.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Earlier this season there was much discussion regarding defensive positions under the basket. Today in a boys' H.S.
freshmen game I had these two plays.

Play #1: Early in the first quarter, I was Lead, table side, when V1 drove toward the basket along the endline from my left to right. V1 drove past H1 and just before V1 became airborne H2 took a legal position facing V1 directly under the basket. V1 released his field gold attempt and then charged into H2 before returning to the court. I disallowed the basket and charged V1 with a player control foul for charging.

Play #2: Mid-way through the third quarter, I was Lead, opposite the table and had on ball coverage, when V1 drove toward the basket. H1 took a legal guarding position against V1 directly under the basket just before V1 became airborne. V1 released his field gold attempt and then charged into H1 before returning to the court. I disallowed the basket and charged V1 with a player control foul for charging.

Needless to say, V1, Coach V, and Team V fans did not like the calls. But don't you just love it when the fans boo.

[mick]

My partner and I had a cool thing happen last week.

Captain and Stud of each team was #40.

First foul of the game: (me) V40 crashes into H40 on a drive 5' from the hoop.
2nd foul of the game: (partner) H40 crashes into V40 on a drive 5' from the hoop.

mick

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Needless to say, V1, Coach V, and Team V fans did not like the calls. But don't you just love it when the fans boo.

I love it when they boo after I've gotten a call right.

If I know I kicked it, on the other hand . . .

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Earlier this season there was much discussion regarding defensive positions under the basket. Today in a boys' H.S.
freshmen game I had these two plays.

Play #1: Early in the first quarter, I was Lead, table side, when V1 drove toward the basket along the endline from my left to right. V1 drove past H1 and just before V1 became airborne H2 took a legal position facing V1 directly under the basket. V1 released his field gold attempt and then charged into H2 before returning to the court. I disallowed the basket and charged V1 with a player control foul for charging.

Mark - why did you cancel the basket? Is this another area where FIBA differs to NFHS? Under FIBA rules, the basket would have counted since V1 had released the ball before causing contact with H2.

Just curious....

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Oz Referee

Mark - why did you cancel the basket? Is this another area where FIBA differs to NFHS? Under FIBA rules, the basket would have counted since V1 had released the ball before causing contact with H2.

Just curious....

You are correct, under FIBA and NCAA Men's rules, if the contact comes after the release of the field goal attempt the basket would count and if Team H was in the bonus H1 would shoot free throws. But under NFHS and NCAA Women's rules, if contact occurs at anytime before the shooter returns to the floor, the foul is considered a player control foul and the basket does not count.

But the real point of my posting was that the defender had a legal position under the basket and I just wanted to get everybody all riled up again. I guess I am getting cantankerous in my old age.

[Oz Referee]

Mark, did you get my email about the Masters?

[crew]

on play 1, and 2 i would have block or nothing.
but this again is my opinion.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by crew
on play 1, and 2 i would have block or nothing.
but this again is my opinion.

I am curious - by NFHS rules, this is clearly PC in both cases - unless you're following other rules, how COULD you have a block? A no-call doesn't seem to fit, but a block is definitely wrong - again, by NFHS rules, and the way the play was described.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by drinkeii

I am curious - by NFHS rules, this is clearly PC in both cases - unless you're following other rules, how COULD you have a block? A no-call doesn't seem to fit, but a block is definitely wrong - again, by NFHS rules, and the way the play was described.

David,both the NCAA mens and NFHS rulebooks say you can never have a block because the defensive player had a legal guarding position before the offensive player became airborne.Just that simple.It has to be a charge or nothing.Some officials don't use the rulebook as a basis for their play-calling.I'm sure that you will discover that shortly.You may get a lot of "philosophy",but what you won't get is any kind of rules reference that will back it up.You have fun with it,'cause I ain't gonna play around with it again.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 5th, 2002 at 04:49 AM]

[DrakeM]

"Needless to say, V1, Coach V, and Team V fans did not like the calls."

Mark's call is absolutely correct ACCORDING TO NF RULES.
It think his statement is indicative of the changing
philosophy and expectations of players and coaches in today's game.
Not saying that their expectations should dictate how we call the game, but it's time for a rule (definition) change.
We've beaten this topic to a pulp so let's not do it again.
Rules need to be changed when they become obsolete or impractical.
IMO, this one fits both those criteria.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by DrakeM

We've beaten this topic to a pulp so let's not do it again.
Rules need to be changed when they become obsolete or impractical.
IMO, this one fits both those criteria. [/B]

Amen,Drake!I can think of a few more I'd love to see changed.Until they do,though,we gotta live with the ones we got.You never know who's watching-at any level.

[rockyroad]

I personally love the NCAA Women's interpretation on these plays...unless the drive is parallel to the baseline - as in play 1 - you can not have a PC foul directly under the basket...it is not legitimate defense according to this interpretation...on the drive parallel to the baseline, the offensive player could be going for a reverse, and so position under the basket is cutting them off from that...all other plays, it is a block or nothing (heavy emphasis on calling the block)

[Hawks Coach]

My only reaction was shock that the visiting FRESHMAN team had fans! Was the bowling alley closed?

[zebraman]

Good call. Why anyone would even question it or suggest to call it otherwise in an NFHS game eludes me. Imagine all the out-of-control drives we'd have if the offense couldn't be called for PC in that scenario..man would that be ugly!

Z

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by rockyroad
I personally love the NCAA Women's interpretation on these plays...unless the drive is parallel to the baseline - as in play 1 - you can not have a PC foul directly under the basket...it is not legitimate defense according to this interpretation...on the drive parallel to the baseline, the offensive player could be going for a reverse, and so position under the basket is cutting them off from that...all other plays, it is a block or nothing (heavy emphasis on calling the block)

The NCAA Women's interpretation is the most stupid and idiotic thing in the world. I don't even want to go there, but I see that I stirred up the hornet's nest again. Sorry guys.

But for reasons that I have given before, the rules are fine as they are.

Hawks Coach, that is not a nice thing to say about the visitors and bowling even though bowling, beer and Toledo always go together. By the way I am not a native of Toledo, I live there because I married a wonderful woman from Toledo.


to: Oz, yes I did get your email. Thanks.