Contact on a Force Play - FED

[cshs81]

What are you looking for when there is contact between the sliding runner and the fielder with the ball on a force play in order to determine if the contact is legal? I realize this is a broad question.

I've read the various threads regarding FPSR and understand the sliding portion of the rule. However, what is legal in regards to the runner's use of his arms in making contact?

If he's sliding with his hands up in the air in what appears to be a normal slide and the throw makes contact with the arms, is it interference?

If the runner's elbow dislodges the ball from the fielder's glove on the force play , its it interference?

Is contact on a popup slide interference?

Originally Posted by cshs81

What are you looking for when there is contact between the sliding runner and the fielder with the ball on a force play in order to determine if the contact is legal? I realize this is a broad question.

I've read the various threads regarding FPSR and understand the sliding portion of the rule. However, what is legal in regards to the runner's use of his arms in making contact?

If he's sliding with his hands up in the air in what appears to be a normal slide and the throw makes contact with the arms, is it interference?

If the runner's elbow dislodges the ball from the fielder's glove on the force play , its it interference?

Is contact on a popup slide interference?

As long as the slide is LEGAL and the runner does not deliberately attempt to dislodge the ball from the fielder's glove, I would call it no INT.

Contact on a popup slide is interference because a popup slide is illegal. See FED 2-32-2

ART. 2... A slide is illegal if:

a. the runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide into the fielder, or
b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position, or
c. the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder, or
d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg, or
e. the runner tries to injure the fielder, or
f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.

[David B]

Originally Posted by cshs81

What are you looking for when there is contact between the sliding runner and the fielder with the ball on a force play in order to determine if the contact is legal? I realize this is a broad question.

I've read the various threads regarding FPSR and understand the sliding portion of the rule. However, what is legal in regards to the runner's use of his arms in making contact?

If he's sliding with his hands up in the air in what appears to be a normal slide and the throw makes contact with the arms, is it interference?

If the runner's elbow dislodges the ball from the fielder's glove on the force play , its it interference?

Is contact on a popup slide interference?

I would keep it simple. If its a legal slide and the throw contacts him you have nothing unless you thought he did it intentionally.

Pop up slide I would call it if he interfered with the play. If he doesn't interfere with the play you have nothing.

Remember baseball can be a contact sport. Just because there is contact does not mean you have a violation of the rules.

Hope that helps

Thanks
David

Originally Posted by David B

I would keep it simple. If its a legal slide and the throw contacts him you have nothing unless you thought he did it intentionally.

Pop up slide I would call it if he interfered with the play. If he doesn't interfere with the play you have nothing.

Remember baseball can be a contact sport. Just because there is contact does not mean you have a violation of the rules.

Hope that helps

Thanks
David

I agree with the issue on the popup slide. However, would you agree or disagree that any contact with a fielder on a popup slide where there is a potential second play is INT. I would think the popup slide would be enough distraction and any contact would compound the situation. Interested in your thoughts.

[Tim C]

Be very careful with this part of the rule:

"f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases."

The NFHS has noted that a player may slide in a direction "not directly in a line" if that slide is away from the fielder.

So, using pretty good logic, a runner can run or slide AWAY from a fielder and be legal.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

National Federation of High Schools
Publication Committee

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Be very careful with this part of the rule:

"f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases."

The NFHS has noted that a player may slide in a direction "not directly in a line" if that slide is away from the fielder.

So, using pretty good logic, a runner can run or slide AWAY from a fielder and be legal.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

National Federation of High Schools
Publication Committee

Several coaches teach their players to slide directly to the base which helps. Don't forget the other two parts: 1) alter the play, 2) make contact. You have to factor these into the equation.

[David B]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

I agree with the issue on the popup slide. However, would you agree or disagree that any contact with a fielder on a popup slide where there is a potential second play is INT. I would think the popup slide would be enough distraction and any contact would compound the situation. Interested in your thoughts.

Good question. I know what I would do - I would see if he was able to finish the play as he intended.

IOW, you probably would be best to use your judgement. If I think it affected the play call it.

But bottomline, just if there was a little contact I would not call it based on that fact. There has to be some type of alteration of the play.

That's been my interpretation of this type of play.

Thanks
David

[Tim C]

"1) alter the play, 2) make contact. You have to factor these into the equation."

Almost correct but not exactly:

Play:

R1 and less than two outs

Ground ball to F4 who flips to F6 covering second base.

F6 touches the base and moves 3 or 4 steps past the base towards right field.

Retired R1 slides two feet to the right field side of the base, does not contact F6 or alter the play.

According the the NFHS Baseball Illustrated Rules (sometimes called the 'comic book') this is a violation of the FPSR and the double play shall be called.

No alteration and no contact but it is an illegal slide and therefore penalized.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

National Federation of High Schools
Publication Committee

Originally Posted by Tim C

"1) alter the play, 2) make contact. You have to factor these into the equation."

Almost correct but not exactly:

Play:

R1 and less than two outs

Ground ball to F4 who flips to F6 covering second base.

F6 touches the base and moves 3 or 4 steps past the base towards right field.

Retired R1 slides two feet to the right field side of the base, does not contact F6 or alter the play.

According the the NFHS Baseball Illustrated Rules (sometimes called the 'comic book') this is a violation of the FPSR and the double play shall be called.

No alteration and no contact but it is an illegal slide and therefore penalized.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

National Federation of High Schools
Publication Committee

Would you agree about the situation in my post being INT even if not contact?

However, would you agree or disagree that any contact with a fielder on a popup slide where there is a potential second play is INT. I would think the popup slide would be enough distraction and any contact would compound the situation.

[bisonpitcher]

How about this situation: R1, Ground ball to F5 who throws to F4 covering second for the force. R1 slides in to the front of the bag and his foot bounces off the front of the bag and contacts the F4's left foot on top of the bag. No throw is made and R1's natural momentum carries his foot about 6 inches or so past the back edge of the bag. BU calls R1 out and warns him as he leaves the field that he would have rung up the BR if a throw was attempted because contact occurred on top of the bag and his foot passed the back edge of the bag. I personally would not have called this, the slide was direct and on the ground and not even a hard slide, but BU said that if the runner passed the back of the bag even an inch it was automatic.

[David B]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

How about this situation: R1, Ground ball to F5 who throws to F4 covering second for the force. R1 slides in to the front of the bag and his foot bounces off the front of the bag and contacts the F4's left foot on top of the bag. No throw is made and R1's natural momentum carries his foot about 6 inches or so past the back edge of the bag. BU calls R1 out and warns him as he leaves the field that he would have rung up the BR if a throw was attempted because contact occurred on top of the bag and his foot passed the back edge of the bag. I personally would not have called this, the slide was direct and on the ground and not even a hard slide, but BU said that if the runner passed the back of the bag even an inch it was automatic.

Leave it alone, that would be an OOO.

Runner sliding in hard, who can tell if someone is an inch over the bag?

Thansk
David

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

How about this situation: R1, Ground ball to F5 who throws to F4 covering second for the force. R1 slides in to the front of the bag and his foot bounces off the front of the bag and contacts the F4's left foot on top of the bag. No throw is made and R1's natural momentum carries his foot about 6 inches or so past the back edge of the bag. BU calls R1 out and warns him as he leaves the field that he would have rung up the BR if a throw was attempted because contact occurred on top of the bag and his foot passed the back edge of the bag. I personally would not have called this, the slide was direct and on the ground and not even a hard slide, but BU said that if the runner passed the back of the bag even an inch it was automatic.

This is not a violation. The rule states "the runner goes beyond the base and THEN makes contact with the fielder." (emphasis added -- it was a clarification made a few years ago because too many umpires were calliong an out in a play such as above when that wasn't the intent of the rule.)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"1) alter the play, 2) make contact. You have to factor these into the equation."

Almost correct but not exactly:

Play:

R1 and less than two outs

Ground ball to F4 who flips to F6 covering second base.

F6 touches the base and moves 3 or 4 steps past the base towards right field.

Retired R1 slides two feet to the right field side of the base, does not contact F6 or alter the play.

According the the NFHS Baseball Illustrated Rules (sometimes called the 'comic book') this is a violation of the FPSR and the double play shall be called.

No alteration and no contact but it is an illegal slide and therefore penalized.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

National Federation of High Schools
Publication Committee

I hope they publish this play in the case book next year to clarify -- especially given on one of these boards many years ago by some hihg-ranking FED official (it might have been Elliot Hopkins, but I don't recall).,

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

I agree with the issue on the popup slide. However, would you agree or disagree that any contact with a fielder on a popup slide where there is a potential second play is INT. I would think the popup slide would be enough distraction and any contact would compound the situation. Interested in your thoughts.

It's a violation only if there's contact -- that's the meaning of "into the fielder" in 2-32-2

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's a violation only if there's contact -- that's the meaning of "into the fielder" in 2-32-2

Refer to Tim C post

Play:

R1 and less than two outs

Ground ball to F4 who flips to F6 covering second base.

F6 touches the base and moves 3 or 4 steps past the base towards right field.

Retired R1 slides two feet to the right field side of the base, does not contact F6 or alter the play.

According the the NFHS Baseball Illustrated Rules (sometimes called the 'comic book') this is a violation of the FPSR and the double play shall be called.
No alteration and no contact but it is an illegal slide and therefore penalized.

What's the difference between his post and mine - no contact and no altering the play, but his scenario shows INT. Your post and his are not consistent. According to Tim C, any illegal slide on a FPSR situation is by definition INT.

According to 2-32-2a, a popup slide into a fielder is illegal - this is what the OP stated. This infers that there is contact. The rule doesn't specify how severe the contact must be. Tim C situation is 2-32-2f. If his situation is INT, the popup slide HAS to be int, regardless of the fact of contact or altering the play.

If there's a difference, please clue me in because I have read this thread over and over. The only possible thing I can think of is that Tim C is incorrect, and so far no one has shown any inclination in that direction.

Or maybe I'm in a fog this morning because I haven't had enough coffee.