Contact on a Force Play - FED

Originally Posted by David B

I would keep it simple. If its a legal slide and the throw contacts him you have nothing unless you thought he did it intentionally.

Pop up slide I would call it if he interfered with the play. If he doesn't interfere with the play you have nothing.

Remember baseball can be a contact sport. Just because there is contact does not mean you have a violation of the rules.

Hope that helps

Thanks
David

I agree with the issue on the popup slide. However, would you agree or disagree that any contact with a fielder on a popup slide where there is a potential second play is INT. I would think the popup slide would be enough distraction and any contact would compound the situation. Interested in your thoughts.

[David B]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

I agree with the issue on the popup slide. However, would you agree or disagree that any contact with a fielder on a popup slide where there is a potential second play is INT. I would think the popup slide would be enough distraction and any contact would compound the situation. Interested in your thoughts.

Good question. I know what I would do - I would see if he was able to finish the play as he intended.

IOW, you probably would be best to use your judgement. If I think it affected the play call it.

But bottomline, just if there was a little contact I would not call it based on that fact. There has to be some type of alteration of the play.

That's been my interpretation of this type of play.

Thanks
David

[Tim C]

"1) alter the play, 2) make contact. You have to factor these into the equation."

Almost correct but not exactly:

Play:

R1 and less than two outs

Ground ball to F4 who flips to F6 covering second base.

F6 touches the base and moves 3 or 4 steps past the base towards right field.

Retired R1 slides two feet to the right field side of the base, does not contact F6 or alter the play.

According the the NFHS Baseball Illustrated Rules (sometimes called the 'comic book') this is a violation of the FPSR and the double play shall be called.

No alteration and no contact but it is an illegal slide and therefore penalized.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

National Federation of High Schools
Publication Committee

Originally Posted by Tim C

"1) alter the play, 2) make contact. You have to factor these into the equation."

Almost correct but not exactly:

Play:

R1 and less than two outs

Ground ball to F4 who flips to F6 covering second base.

F6 touches the base and moves 3 or 4 steps past the base towards right field.

Retired R1 slides two feet to the right field side of the base, does not contact F6 or alter the play.

According the the NFHS Baseball Illustrated Rules (sometimes called the 'comic book') this is a violation of the FPSR and the double play shall be called.

No alteration and no contact but it is an illegal slide and therefore penalized.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

National Federation of High Schools
Publication Committee

Would you agree about the situation in my post being INT even if not contact?

However, would you agree or disagree that any contact with a fielder on a popup slide where there is a potential second play is INT. I would think the popup slide would be enough distraction and any contact would compound the situation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Tim C

"1) alter the play, 2) make contact. You have to factor these into the equation."

Almost correct but not exactly:

Play:

R1 and less than two outs

Ground ball to F4 who flips to F6 covering second base.

F6 touches the base and moves 3 or 4 steps past the base towards right field.

Retired R1 slides two feet to the right field side of the base, does not contact F6 or alter the play.

According the the NFHS Baseball Illustrated Rules (sometimes called the 'comic book') this is a violation of the FPSR and the double play shall be called.

No alteration and no contact but it is an illegal slide and therefore penalized.

Regards,

Tim Christensen

National Federation of High Schools
Publication Committee

I hope they publish this play in the case book next year to clarify -- especially given on one of these boards many years ago by some hihg-ranking FED official (it might have been Elliot Hopkins, but I don't recall).,

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

I agree with the issue on the popup slide. However, would you agree or disagree that any contact with a fielder on a popup slide where there is a potential second play is INT. I would think the popup slide would be enough distraction and any contact would compound the situation. Interested in your thoughts.

It's a violation only if there's contact -- that's the meaning of "into the fielder" in 2-32-2

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's a violation only if there's contact -- that's the meaning of "into the fielder" in 2-32-2

Refer to Tim C post

Play:

R1 and less than two outs

Ground ball to F4 who flips to F6 covering second base.

F6 touches the base and moves 3 or 4 steps past the base towards right field.

Retired R1 slides two feet to the right field side of the base, does not contact F6 or alter the play.

According the the NFHS Baseball Illustrated Rules (sometimes called the 'comic book') this is a violation of the FPSR and the double play shall be called.
No alteration and no contact but it is an illegal slide and therefore penalized.

What's the difference between his post and mine - no contact and no altering the play, but his scenario shows INT. Your post and his are not consistent. According to Tim C, any illegal slide on a FPSR situation is by definition INT.

According to 2-32-2a, a popup slide into a fielder is illegal - this is what the OP stated. This infers that there is contact. The rule doesn't specify how severe the contact must be. Tim C situation is 2-32-2f. If his situation is INT, the popup slide HAS to be int, regardless of the fact of contact or altering the play.

If there's a difference, please clue me in because I have read this thread over and over. The only possible thing I can think of is that Tim C is incorrect, and so far no one has shown any inclination in that direction.

Or maybe I'm in a fog this morning because I haven't had enough coffee.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

Or maybe I'm in a fog this morning because I haven't had enough coffee.

Probably. Some slides are illegal if they cause contact -- pop-up, going beyond the base,etc. Some slides are illegal in-and-of themselves -- sliding not into the base and in the direction of a fielder.

Note that of the 6 (or so) "ilelgal slides" in 2-32, some contain the words "and cause contact" (or similar) and some don't.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Probably. Some slides are illegal if they cause contact -- pop-up, going beyond the base,etc. Some slides are illegal in-and-of themselves -- sliding not into the base and in the direction of a fielder.

Note that of the 6 (or so) "ilelgal slides" in 2-32, some contain the words "and cause contact" (or similar) and some don't.

So - for 2-32-2a (popup) the contact makes it illegal but for 2-32-2f, it's illegal no matter what.

Just so I'm clear a popup slide in and of itself is NOT illegal unless there is contact, right. That being said, does ANY contact AUTOMATICALLY cause the slide to be illegal, regardless of the severity of the contact, similar to sliding not in a straight line to the base, or does the contact severity or altering the play factor into the decision.

Just for my edification - do you happen to have any old case books that reference a popup slide? Unfortunately the 2007 CB only deals with 2-32-2f. Thanks

[David B]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

So - for 2-32-2a (popup) the contact makes it illegal but for 2-32-2f, it's illegal no matter what.

Just so I'm clear a popup slide in and of itself is NOT illegal unless there is contact, right. That being said, does ANY contact AUTOMATICALLY cause the slide to be illegal, regardless of the severity of the contact, similar to sliding not in a straight line to the base, or does the contact severity or altering the play factor into the decision.

Just for my edification - do you happen to have any old case books that reference a popup slide? Unfortunately the 2007 CB only deals with 2-32-2f. Thanks

I don't have time to research it but I'm sure its in the archives. I posted earlier this year about this type of play at second and I had found a great piece that Carl Childress has written that covers all of these types of plays with a great explanation.

Its probably going to be under FPSR because that is what his paper was about.

But as I stated above, just because you have contact doesn't make it illegal.

Look up 2-32-1 and the definition of a legal slide. If you do a legal slide and make contact there is no problem with the runner.

Then go to 2-32-2. If you have an illegal slide then you have to call the FPSR to penalize the offense.
That would be the pop up slide - but to be illegal it says pop up slide "into the fielder."

That was a new addition that is still not very clear in the rule books but is in the BRD and other books.

Hope that helps

Thanks
DAvid

Edited to add that I found the thread, its a good read about these type of plays

FEDlandia FPSR

Originally Posted by David B

Then go to 2-32-2. If you have an illegal slide then you have to call the FPSR to penalize the offense.
That would be the pop up slide - but to be illegal it says pop up slide "into the fielder."

Thanks
DAvid

Edited to add that I found the thread, its a good read about these type of plays

FEDlandia FPSR

Unfortunately it still doesn't answer my question. In a popup slide situation where there IS contact, is the play AUTOMATICALLY RULED INT or does the severity of the contact or alteration of the play factor into the decision making it a judgment call?