Ejection Fiasco - Need Comments

[PAT THE REF]

Hey Everyone...

Sorry for the long post... The following incidents took place during a Varsity game. Please comment and make suggestions about what I did right/wrong. Any constructive criticism is greatly appreciated. We will call the Home team – Red and the Visitors – Blue. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. (or guilty ;P )

Out of Play Throw Incident:
During the beginning of the game, the pitcher threw a ball over the first baseman’s head and landed into dead ball area beyond first base. I ruled “time” and awarded the runner second base. In my judgment, the pitcher threw the ball from the rubber and therefore awarded him only one base. After both base coaches were screaming that he stepped off, my partner awarded him third base. For every throw from the rubber from that point on, there was an argument/discussion that the runner should be awarded third.

“Double Play” Incident
In the bottom of an inning, with a man on first, the ball was hit to the shortstop. He proceeded to attempt a quick 6-4-3 double play. As I was in a standing set and second, the ball was thrown to the second baseman who was a good foot away from the bag and never made an attempt to touch second base. I ruled the first runner safe. He proceeded to throw the ball to the first baseman for the force out - in which he was out.

As I turn around to bounce ahead of the runner, the runner - now safe at second, is about three feet off the bag towards the pitcher. His coach screams at him that he is safe and then returns directly to the base.

Time was called by the Blue coach met me at the mound to discuss the call. He wanted to know why that runner was safe at second, “He failed to touch the bag coach”. Then he inquired why he wasn't ruled out for being out of the baseline. I asked him to clarify his question, upon that he wanted to know why the runner was allowed to return to the base if he walked three feet off it. I informed him that each runner makes his own baseline from the starting point to the base. He persisted that it was a straight line between the bases. We discussed the rule about baselines and the development of them. Then after about a three minute conference, I informed him that we need to get the game back underway. He acknowledged and returned to his dugout.

Balk Incident
Immediately following the “double play” at second, the pitcher from the Blue Team proceeded to balk. Before I could pop up and declare the balk, both Red coaches proceeded to scream, “THAT’S A BALK!” I gave the stop sign to both coaches in their boxes. After I awarded the balk the coach then came out again to discuss that call. I informed him that the coaches were not calling the balk and that I was in the process of calling it. He returned to his dugout.

MAJOR Incident
In the top of the seventh inning, two out, full count on the batter, I believe there was a man on 1st. My partner rings the batter up on a debatable pitch for a called strike three. As he was walking away, the batter threw up his hands, flung his bat into dead ball area and threw his helmet into the air a good ten feet. At first I ejected the batter for this display.

As the players took the field to start the bottom of the seventh, I noticed the player was still in as the catcher. I jogged down to home plate and told my partner that he was ejected. I briefly told him what occurred and what caused the ejection, then he informed the coach of the ejection and disqualification of his senior catcher.

The head coach from Blue then proceeded to leave his dugout and come after me. I informed him that # x was ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct. I started walking towards first base (from the plate area) and he “cut me off” somewhere around the forty-five foot line.
He proceeded to touch my shoulder and I shrugged him off. He then told me that “I don’t know what I am doing, I don’t understand, He is a senior who has never been into a high school playoff game and I am running his high school career.” I then informed him that “Coach, he ejected himself when he threw the bat.” He came back at me with “you really don’t know what you are doing, why are you doing this to the kid.” We literally went back and forth like this for about five minutes… During the discussion, I gave the coach three specific warnings.

I told him once, “Coach we have to get the game back underway, we have a game to finish.” After another round of him accusing me that I am ruining his high school career, “Coach, I hear what you are saying, but we have to get the game back underway.” Then it has been about seven minutes and I have given him two specific warnings already. I have attempted to move towards the outfield but he has cut me off repeatedly.

Then I told him “Coach, we are done arguing and we will get back to the game.” As I started to walk away he literally cut me off again and stated “What if I want to argue this! You are ruining his high school career! You have seen some bad calls and made some today. You have seen a lot worse then this on the diamond, we cant eject him.”

After three specific warnings, delaying the game about ten minutes and him cutting me off repeatedly I told him that “Coach, I hear what you are saying but we have delayed this game long enough, I am going to walk towards the outfield, we will discuss this later if need be but we need to get the game underway. If you are standing here when I turn around, you will be joining your player.”

As I walked toward the outfield, to take my position I heard footsteps behind me. When I got near the edge of the grass I turned around and there was the coach who chased me down and was still arguing the call. I ejected him at this point. Once he left, the assistant coach took over (JV coach) and that was it until after the game.

Post Game Conference

Upon leaving the field and being escorted out by a few “larger” parents of Red’s kids; My partner went back to the field to discuss the ejections with both coaches. When he came back he wanted me to “eat” the ejections and not report them because neither the kid nor the coach knew what they were doing and that the opposing coach would not object.

As the Red coach was leaving he talked to me and personally asked me not to report it because of the personal situations of the team and player. I told him what the consequences were and that it really should be reported. He told me that he wouldn't say anything and that we shouldn't report it. Then the Blue coach apologized to me and admitted that he was wrong in charging me down on the field.

As I waited in the parking lot - I thought things over. Then my partner said, lets not report it and you'll owe me one. I really wanted to report the coach but I couldn't report the coach and not the kid, because the coach was ejected for delaying the game and coming after me about the kid.

After all four coaches were consulted the “ejections” were changed to “dugout restrictions”. I would not have even considered the fact of not reporting this incident if it were not for my partner and the home team’s coach APPROACHING ME to discuss the matter.
************************************************** ********
I know what I did *(failure to report) was wrong and I have learned my lesson from it. Now that I look back on it, once you toss (and both - I think - had a valid reason to be) I should have “manned” up and written them up for their suspensions. Regardless of the situation for the following weeks to come.

Please let me know what you would have done...

[bisonpitcher]

Wow, tough game. Although it sounds like everyone had good intentions about not letting the kid get suspended, not reporting would get most umpires I know in hot water if their assignor ever found out. I would have written them up, sorry for the kid, but dont be so stupid to get tossed for throwing equipment. A senior should know better. Also, 7 minutes for a coach to argue seems like an awful long leash to give the guy IMO.

[C'monBlue]

Originally Posted by PAT THE REF

Time was called by the Blue coach met me at the mound to discuss the call. He wanted to know why that runner was safe at second, “He failed to touch the bag coach”. Then he inquired why he wasn't ruled out for being out of the baseline. I asked him to clarify his question, upon that he wanted to know why the runner was allowed to return to the base if he walked three feet off it. I informed him that each runner makes his own baseline from the starting point to the base. He persisted that it was a straight line between the bases. We discussed the rule about baselines and the development of them. Then after about a three minute conference, I informed him that we need to get the game back underway. He acknowledged and returned to his dugout.

A three minute conference over something this ridiculous is an eternity. It suggests two things. First, the coach obviously doesn't know what he's doing, and second, you are too patient--a trait that, while good for fishermen, can bite an umpire in the butt when dealing with irrational people. Listen to his gripe. Explain yourself once. Play ball. If he keeps talking, play ball. If he keeps talking, he's gone--45 seconds after he first appeared. And NEVER neglect to write the report. It will look like you are admitting that you are wrong and will only make things worse next time.

Oh, and get a new partner. Anybody who would return to the field to explain a call to a coach after a game is not someone I would *EVER* want to work with.

[GarthB]

Basically:

1. Your partner threw you under the bus. Get a new one.

2. You talk too much. Three minute and five minute conversations are ridiculous and unnecessary. Responses should be five words or less. "Fielder didn't touch the bag." "Pitcher didn't come set." We're not discussing judgement calls." etc.

3. Coach grabs you...he's done for the day. No need for the following crap to take place,

4. You do not "un-eject."

5. You do not lie on reports.

[LMan]

keep answers 5 words or less, warn, eject. Repeat as necessary.


you took a TON of shinola - those coaches ran all over you like a cheap carpet.
Wow. THREE MIN discussions? Wow.

This was a playoff game? You must be kidding. how long have you umpired? I smell a rat.

[canadaump6]

Why can one not uneject someone? An ejection is a judgement call, and judgement calls can be reversed. I wouldn't usually do this, but I'm just saying it is possible to uneject someone, so long as another pitch is not thrown before this happens.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Why can one not uneject someone? An ejection is a judgement call, and judgement calls can be reversed. I wouldn't usually do this, but I'm just saying it is possible to uneject someone, so long as another pitch is not thrown before this happens.

hush, troll. You have exposed yourself too far this time. No umpire who lives would believe this. Thanks for "coming out", as it were.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by LMan

hush, troll. You have exposed yourself too far this time. No umpire who lives would believe this. Thanks for "coming out", as it were.

Well he's no longer "Trapped in the Closet" I guess you could say...

Pat, you took way too much garbage from the coaches and unfortunately, your partner left a knife in your back. Sorry to hear about the rough game.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Why can one not uneject someone? An ejection is a judgement call, and judgement calls can be reversed. I wouldn't usually do this, but I'm just saying it is possible to uneject someone, so long as another pitch is not thrown before this happens.

I have to go with LMan on this one. What a boneheaded statement, man. Are you just jackin' with us here? Once you toss someone, they're history. You should not unring this bell. If you get talked into reversing your ejection, you are telling everyone that you are a very weak, gullible umpire, who deserves to get walked all over.

[SanDiegoSteve]

PAT THE REF,

As others have said, you took way too much from the coach. I don't need to rub that in any.

First, when you awarded the runner second base on the ball thrown out of play, you judged that the pitcher was on the rubber when he threw it. That, as the base umpire, is your area of focus, the feet. At least that is the way I was taught. Both umpires are to be aware of the entire pitcher, but the BU focuses more from the waist down, and the PU has from the waist up. You made the call, and your partner caved to the pressure from the coaches. He did this crap after the game too, which was inexcusable.

Secondly, you are under no obligation to discuss the ejection further with the coach, and the second he chased you down and touched your shoulder, you should have dumped him. You don't allow him to get physical at all. Once he got away with that, he knew he could go after you.

Anytime I hear the coaches yell "balk," I let them know in no uncertain terms that we (the umpires) will do all the calling of balks, and they are to refrain from using the term balk while the ball is in play. You need to shut that stuff down immediately. If the coaches are allowed to do this, they will eventually yell "balk" and cause a pitcher to balk, then you'll have to run them for yelling it, etc.

One last thing. I see where you said that you learned your lesson on not reporting ejections. I had to learn that lesson myself, as I decided to be nice and not report an ejection when begged by a coach. Of course, anyone at the game can mention this to your association president, then you're in big trouble. Our president warns everyone at the start of the season now, that if you eject someone, and you don't call it in to him, and write out the report, that you will be brought before the board, and likely suspended.

Remember that these people ejected themselves, and don't feel guilty for doing your job and enforcing the rules.

Now put this game behind you, and scratch/blackball that traitorous partner of yours.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Basically:

1. Your partner threw you under the bus. Get a new one.

2. You talk too much. Three minute and five minute conversations are ridiculous and unnecessary. Responses should be five words or less. "Fielder didn't touch the bag." "Pitcher didn't come set." We're not discussing judgement calls." etc.

3. Coach grabs you...he's done for the day. No need for the following crap to take place,

4. You do not "un-eject."

5. You do not lie on reports.

I couldn't have said it better. Pat, you really need to "pull the trigger" sooner. If a coach or player puts his hand on you in an argument, they're gone!

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Why can one not uneject someone? An ejection is a judgement call, and judgement calls can be reversed. I wouldn't usually do this, but I'm just saying it is possible to uneject someone, so long as another pitch is not thrown before this happens

No, ejection is not a judgment call, you miserable Troll! Ejection is a penalty for a violation of a rule. You never, ever un-eject someone for any reason because you never eject unless it is called for! No self respecting umpire would ever do this!

[David B]

Originally Posted by PAT THE REF

Hey Everyone...

Sorry for the long post... The following incidents took place during a Varsity game. Please comment and make suggestions about what I did right/wrong. Any constructive criticism is greatly appreciated. We will call the Home team – Red and the Visitors – Blue. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. (or guilty ;P )

Out of Play Throw Incident:
During the beginning of the game, the pitcher threw a ball over the first baseman’s head and landed into dead ball area beyond first base. I ruled “time” and awarded the runner second base. In my judgment, the pitcher threw the ball from the rubber and therefore awarded him only one base. After both base coaches were screaming that he stepped off, my partner awarded him third base. For every throw from the rubber from that point on, there was an argument/discussion that the runner should be awarded third.

“Double Play” Incident
In the bottom of an inning, with a man on first, the ball was hit to the shortstop. He proceeded to attempt a quick 6-4-3 double play. As I was in a standing set and second, the ball was thrown to the second baseman who was a good foot away from the bag and never made an attempt to touch second base. I ruled the first runner safe. He proceeded to throw the ball to the first baseman for the force out - in which he was out.

As I turn around to bounce ahead of the runner, the runner - now safe at second, is about three feet off the bag towards the pitcher. His coach screams at him that he is safe and then returns directly to the base.

Time was called by the Blue coach met me at the mound to discuss the call. He wanted to know why that runner was safe at second, “He failed to touch the bag coach”. Then he inquired why he wasn't ruled out for being out of the baseline. I asked him to clarify his question, upon that he wanted to know why the runner was allowed to return to the base if he walked three feet off it. I informed him that each runner makes his own baseline from the starting point to the base. He persisted that it was a straight line between the bases. We discussed the rule about baselines and the development of them. Then after about a three minute conference, I informed him that we need to get the game back underway. He acknowledged and returned to his dugout.

Balk Incident
Immediately following the “double play” at second, the pitcher from the Blue Team proceeded to balk. Before I could pop up and declare the balk, both Red coaches proceeded to scream, “THAT’S A BALK!” I gave the stop sign to both coaches in their boxes. After I awarded the balk the coach then came out again to discuss that call. I informed him that the coaches were not calling the balk and that I was in the process of calling it. He returned to his dugout.

MAJOR Incident
In the top of the seventh inning, two out, full count on the batter, I believe there was a man on 1st. My partner rings the batter up on a debatable pitch for a called strike three. As he was walking away, the batter threw up his hands, flung his bat into dead ball area and threw his helmet into the air a good ten feet. At first I ejected the batter for this display.

As the players took the field to start the bottom of the seventh, I noticed the player was still in as the catcher. I jogged down to home plate and told my partner that he was ejected. I briefly told him what occurred and what caused the ejection, then he informed the coach of the ejection and disqualification of his senior catcher.

The head coach from Blue then proceeded to leave his dugout and come after me. I informed him that # x was ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct. I started walking towards first base (from the plate area) and he “cut me off” somewhere around the forty-five foot line.
He proceeded to touch my shoulder and I shrugged him off. He then told me that “I don’t know what I am doing, I don’t understand, He is a senior who has never been into a high school playoff game and I am running his high school career.” I then informed him that “Coach, he ejected himself when he threw the bat.” He came back at me with “you really don’t know what you are doing, why are you doing this to the kid.” We literally went back and forth like this for about five minutes… During the discussion, I gave the coach three specific warnings.

I told him once, “Coach we have to get the game back underway, we have a game to finish.” After another round of him accusing me that I am ruining his high school career, “Coach, I hear what you are saying, but we have to get the game back underway.” Then it has been about seven minutes and I have given him two specific warnings already. I have attempted to move towards the outfield but he has cut me off repeatedly.

Then I told him “Coach, we are done arguing and we will get back to the game.” As I started to walk away he literally cut me off again and stated “What if I want to argue this! You are ruining his high school career! You have seen some bad calls and made some today. You have seen a lot worse then this on the diamond, we cant eject him.”

After three specific warnings, delaying the game about ten minutes and him cutting me off repeatedly I told him that “Coach, I hear what you are saying but we have delayed this game long enough, I am going to walk towards the outfield, we will discuss this later if need be but we need to get the game underway. If you are standing here when I turn around, you will be joining your player.”

As I walked toward the outfield, to take my position I heard footsteps behind me. When I got near the edge of the grass I turned around and there was the coach who chased me down and was still arguing the call. I ejected him at this point. Once he left, the assistant coach took over (JV coach) and that was it until after the game.

Post Game Conference

Upon leaving the field and being escorted out by a few “larger” parents of Red’s kids; My partner went back to the field to discuss the ejections with both coaches. When he came back he wanted me to “eat” the ejections and not report them because neither the kid nor the coach knew what they were doing and that the opposing coach would not object.

As the Red coach was leaving he talked to me and personally asked me not to report it because of the personal situations of the team and player. I told him what the consequences were and that it really should be reported. He told me that he wouldn't say anything and that we shouldn't report it. Then the Blue coach apologized to me and admitted that he was wrong in charging me down on the field.

As I waited in the parking lot - I thought things over. Then my partner said, lets not report it and you'll owe me one. I really wanted to report the coach but I couldn't report the coach and not the kid, because the coach was ejected for delaying the game and coming after me about the kid.

After all four coaches were consulted the “ejections” were changed to “dugout restrictions”. I would not have even considered the fact of not reporting this incident if it were not for my partner and the home team’s coach APPROACHING ME to discuss the matter.
************************************************** ********
I know what I did *(failure to report) was wrong and I have learned my lesson from it. Now that I look back on it, once you toss (and both - I think - had a valid reason to be) I should have “manned” up and written them up for their suspensions. Regardless of the situation for the following weeks to come.

Please let me know what you would have done...

It has already been stated, but I'm going to assume that you are a young official.

My experience shows me that younger officials tend to talk too much.

If I'm wrong, then you simply did not have good training on how to deal with a coach.

On any play that a coach wants to discuss, you need to learn to state the rule. Example, play at second. "Coach the runner did NOT run out of the baseline, his baseline is established from where he is to the base. That's rule 8."

End of conversation, coach wants to keep on. Listen, then no sir that's not the rule. Let's play and then walk to your position and play.

On the overthrow, and your partner wants to change the ruling, at that point you go to him and discuss it. Find out what's going on.
If he wants to throw you under the base, don't EVER call a game with him again and let someone know about it.

You have to stand up for yourself and the calls you make. A discussion should never last more than a minute or so. If it goes further than that then an ejection is going to be part of it. (that's just the way it goes)

Best of luck, learn from this and don't let it ever happen again.

Thanks
David

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Why can one not uneject someone? An ejection is a judgement call, and judgement calls can be reversed. I wouldn't usually do this, but I'm just saying it is possible to uneject someone, so long as another pitch is not thrown before this happens.

canadacoach6 - you've had some ridiculous statements here before ... bu this one takes the cake. Crawl back under the bridge now please.

[mcrowder]

Holy cow, Pat... 10 minutes?!?!?!

I won't rehash what others have said (WAY too long on the trigger with the coach), but I will say this.

You warned him. What is a warning for? If you cannot follow through on your own warnings, you are carpet, and word WILL get around amongst the coaches. Ignore/Inform, Warn, Eject. Not warn, warn, warn, warn, warn, warn, eject. A coach gets ONE "Coach, that's enough" or "Coach, we're going to play ball now." 2 minutes is ridiculously long for a discussion with a coach - 10 is amazingly unheard of, we should call Guinness.

PS - ok, I will rehash one thing ... if they earned their ejections, they NEED to be written up - now this coach knows he got away with berating you for a full 10 minutes, with no repercussions at all. I REALLY feel sorry for the next umpire.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

You warned him. What is a warning for? If you cannot follow through on your own warnings, you are carpet, and word WILL get around amongst the coaches. Ignore/Inform, Warn, Eject. Not warn, warn, warn, warn, warn, warn, eject. A coach gets ONE "Coach, that's enough" or "Coach, we're going to play ball now." 2 minutes is ridiculously long for a discussion with a coach - 10 is amazingly unheard of, we should call Guinness.

I completely agree. The thing that stuck out most for me is that "three specific warnings" were issued. That's at least two too many.

In my opinion, a warning is only warranted when an ejectionable violation has not yet occurred but seems likely to occur if not redirected. If the warning is not heeded, then he's gone. But in this example, the coach could/should have been ejected earlier whether or not a warning was issued (he physically touched the umpire).

One of my pet peeves is players/coaches who think they can get away with anything until they get a warning. I've tossed guys for swearing at me, and they then go ballistic and demand that they were entitled to a warning. They're not. If they haven't crossed the ejection line, I may issue a warning, but if they've gone too far, it's good night.

But I can sympathize with you, Pat. Assuming you're a relatively new umpire (as am I), one of the school-of-hard-knocks lessons is learning where to draw that ejection line. I'm still learning it. And it's much easier to sit here and analyze someone else's situation after the fact.