So I'm doing a game in the bottom of the 12th last night...

[TwoBits]

...of a FED softball game (yes, I know which message board this is, and it's also on the softball board), score still tied, and this happens:

Lead off batter taps a slow roller back to the pitcher who promptly fields the ball and throws to first for a routine play. The ball hits the first baseman's glove and somehow pops out at least 5 feet straight up! By the time the first baseman had secured possession, the batter-runner had crossed first base and the first baseman had pulled her foot. My partner, a 25-year veteran, called the batter-runner out on the pop of the glove and took his eyes off the play. Of course, the offensive coach goes ballistic and immediately wants me to call her safe. I tell the coach THREE times that he must discuss the call with the field umpire first. At this time, my partner realizes something is wrong and asks me for help, and the girl is finally ruled safe.

Of course, the home team wins in the bottom of the 12th, although, ironically, this girl got thrown out at home trying to steal on a passed ball.

So my question is, if you see a blatant wrong call by your partner, do you approach him/her, or do you wait for him/her to approach you?

[johnnyg08]

depends on the sitch...sounds like this was the right call...if there's a sitch where your partner calls a runner out and you see the ball on the ground...I would go ask your partner "did you notice the ball on the ground?" in that sitch, I would not overrule your partner publically, but rather get together, talk to him about it and decide...I think I'm probably oversimplifying this, but both instances of jumping in to help, or letting it ride could apply depending on the situation...

[whatgameyouwatchinblue]

Don't help until asked.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

depends on the sitch...sounds like this was the right call...if there's a sitch where your partner calls a runner out and you see the ball on the ground...I would go ask your partner "did you notice the ball on the ground?" in that sitch, .

NEVER approach your P about a judgement call until he asks.

The only time I can think that you would approach your P with out him asking is if you have a double (conflicting) call. In which case you better hope you had jurisdiction.

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I would not overrule your partner publically.

If it's a judgement call, you better not be overuling him privately either. It's never your place to overrule a judgement call. If he asks give him what you saw and it's still his decision.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

NEVER approach your P about a judgement call until he asks.

The only time I can think that you would approach your P with out him asking is if you have a double (conflicting) call. In which case you better hope you had jurisdiction.

I'm not sure I agree with you Don...so if you're working a game and your partner calls a guy safe at home and you see the ball sitting there on the ground as well as probably the entire infield minus the pitcher and catcher and your partner doesn't see it, he calls the runner out, you're not going to say anything? I strongly disagree with you, if you were my partner, I'd want you to tell me...banger at 1B or something like that...stay out of it...but something like that...that's an injustice to both teams and your partner that you're hanging out to dry...

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I'm not sure I agree with you Don...so if you're working a game and your partner calls a guy safe at home and you see the ball sitting there on the ground as well as probably the entire infield minus the pitcher and catcher and your partner doesn't see it, he calls the runner out, you're not going to say anything? I strongly disagree with you, if you were my partner, I'd want you to tell me...banger at 1B or something like that...stay out of it...but something like that...that's an injustice to both teams and your partner that you're hanging out to dry...

If it's that obvious he's going to catch he!! from the offensive coach, the coach will be telling him the ball was laying on the ground. The coach will probably even say it was so obvious your partner saw it from way out there in C. At that point your P can confirm or deny that accusation if he sees fit by asking for your help, until then your P has hung himself out to dry by not being in proper position to see the dropped ball and/or pulling the trigger on his out call before knowing F2 has posession. Either way it's not your problem.

[johnnyg08]

Either way it's not your problem.

I couldn't disagree more Don...as a team of umpires on the field...it's both umps responsibility to get the call right (assume 2 man)...you could be in perfect position and not see a ball dislodged...(since that's the example we're going with)...that's why teams hire two umps...if we're just going to go with whatever calls we see...then lets just use one umpire for all of our games...I get the spirit of what you're saying (and I agree)...but in terms of reality, I can't agree with you.

I agree with Don - keep your mouth shut unless asked

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Either way it's not your problem.

I couldn't disagree more Don...as a team of umpires on the field...it's both umps responsibility to get the call right (assume 2 man)...you could be in perfect position and not see a ball dislodged...(since that's the example we're going with)...that's why teams hire two umps...if we're just going to go with whatever calls we see...then lets just use one umpire for all of our games...I get the spirit of what you're saying (and I agree)...but in terms of reality, I can't agree with you.

As long as the call belongs to one of the umpires - once the call is made, that umpire owns the call - right, wrong or indifferent. Only he can change it and only he can ask for help. If he doesn't ask for help you cannot approach him. It is up to the team that is adversely affected to ask the umpire to ask for assistance, to which he can reply yes and ask your help or no, I don't need his help. 99 times out of 100 the umpire with check with his partner and the partner simply confirms yes or no.

From FED 10-1-4 -note verbage in RED

ART. 4... Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as whether a hit is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. But if there is reasonable doubt about some decision being in conflict with the rules, the coach or captain may ask that the correct ruling be made. The umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it.

[johnnyg08]

okay...you got me to budge on this but only in the area of not being to proud to ask your partner...I guess that's my main point...you're a team out there...communicate and get it right.

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

okay...you got me to budge on this but only in the area of not being to proud to ask your partner...I guess that's my main point...you're a team out there...communicate and get it right.

He||, I'm not that proud not to ask. I agree. But asking for help is one thing -offering help is entirely different. It pretty much tells everyone out there he screwed up. Let him ask so he can keep his dignity and save a little face.

[tibear]

If the call is that bad, you can be certain that one of the teams is going to ask your partner to come to you. So don't offer until asked.

If nobody complains, play on!