Legal pickoff?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mj

It is very similar to how a lefty would freeze but when his leg is in the he then pulls the leg backwards and spins and throws to first.

If the pitcher lifts his foot in any manner similar to his delivery to home, it is a balk. Although a RHP may step and throw to first, it is difficult to do legally. Most pro camps and clinics instruct that the RHP pitcher needs to make a continuous "glide step" to first with no hesitation and no leg lift to throw without balking.

That is why, if you watch major league games, most RHPs either step off or utilize the jump turn or jab step. LL level coaches seem to prefer to do things the hard way. Some even think if they do the move slowly, that makes a difference. It does not.

OBR 8.01 (b)...After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption.

OBR 8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-
(a)The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by GarthB

If the pitcher lifts his foot in any manner similar to his delivery to home, it is a balk. Although a RHP may step and throw to first, it is difficult to do legally. Most pro camps and clinics instruct that the RHP pitcher needs to make a continuous "glide step" to first with no hesitation and no leg lift to throw without balking.

That is why, if you watch major league games, most RHPs either step off or utilize the jump turn or jab step. LL level coaches seem to prefer to do things the hard way. Some even think if they do the move slowly, that makes a difference. It does not.

OBR 8.01 (b)...After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption.

OBR 8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-
(a)The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;

Disengaging the rubber prior to throwing to first is almost never done - particularly at the MLB level. There is no point in doing so. All it does is serve advance notice to the runner of an impending pickoff attempt. Why make the pickoff a two-step maneuver when it can be a single maneuver?

On occasion, you will see the "slow move" by a MLB pitcher. Randy Johnson uses it almost exclusively - although, in general, he rarely attempts pickoffs. Some pitchers deliberately use a "slow move" to set runners up with a better (i.e. faster) move.

The speed of the move is not the deciding factor as to its legality (provided it is continuous). The key is that the free foot moves directly toward 1st. That can be done quickly or slowly.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Disengaging the rubber prior to throwing to first is almost never done - particularly at the MLB level. There is no point in doing so. All it does is serve advance notice to the runner of an impending pickoff attempt. Why make the pickoff a two-step maneuver when it can be a single maneuver?

On occasion, you will see the "slow move" by a MLB pitcher. Randy Johnson uses it almost exclusively - although, in general, he rarely attempts pickoffs. Some pitchers deliberately use a "slow move" to set runners up with a better (i.e. faster) move.

The speed of the move is not the deciding factor as to its legality (provided it is continuous). The key is that the free foot moves directly toward 1st. That can be done quickly or slowly.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

You're phunni...using lefty Randy Johnson to try to validate your mistaken opinoin on RHPs pick off moves to first.

Damn few MLB RHPs step and throw to first. Watch a few games. It's jump turns, jab steps and the occasional disengage. As occcasional as it is, it's still more prevelant for RHPs than stepping and throwing.

He!!, I've met major league pitchers and former major league pitchers who swore a RHP COULDN'T step and throw or it would be a balk. There's a former Minnesota pitching coach living in town who now coaches summer ball and who argues that point every year. Rats....gotta love'em.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by GarthB

You're phunni...using lefty Randy Johnson to try to validate your mistaken opinoin on RHPs pick off moves to first.

Damn few MLB RHPs step and throw to first. Watch a few games. It's jump turns, jab steps and the occasional disengage. As occcasional as it is, it's still more prevelant for RHPs than stepping and throwing.

I realize that Randy Johnson is lefthanded - my point was that Randy Johnson makes no legitimate attempt to pickoff the runner. He employs no deception. He just tosses it over there with no sense of immediacy. There is nothing snappy about Randy Johnson's move.

There are right-handers who do this, also - although it is rare. Most right-hander moves are much quicker than left-handers.

Basically, right-handers rely on quickness whereas left-handers rely on deception. It's unusual to see a right-hander make a slow move toward first.

Randy Johnson makes a slow move with no deception and no sense of immediacy. That was my only point.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Damn few MLB RHPs step and throw to first. Watch a few games. It's jump turns, jab steps and the occasional disengage. As occcasional as it is, it's still more prevelant for RHPs than stepping and throwing.

Breaking contact with the rubber while making a jump move (or jab step) is NOT considered disengaging the rubber. If the pitcher throws the ball out-of-play while making such a move the base award is ONE because the throw is considered to have been made while in contact with the rubber - even though the pitcher is NOT in contact with the rubber.

On the other hand, if he first disengages the rubber (by stepping back) and THEN throws the ball out-of-play the base award is TWO.

I maintain, you will almost NEVER see a professional pitcher disengage (i.e. stepping back) the rubber prior to throwing to first. I can't remember the last time I've seen it.

Left-handers will sometimes make a snap throw by first stepping back. They do this out of necessity because they do not step toward first with their free foot when making such a throw. That particular move is also fairly rare.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Breaking contact with the rubber while making a jump move (or jab step) is NOT considered disengaging the rubber.

Who said it was?

If the pitcher throws the ball out-of-play while making such a move the base award is ONE because the throw is considered to have been made while in contact with the rubber - even though the pitcher is NOT in contact with the rubber.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

On the other hand, if he first disengages the rubber (by stepping back) and THEN throws the ball out-of-play the base award is TWO.

This is fascinating. Did you just buy a rulebook?

I maintain, you will almost NEVER see a professional pitcher disengage (i.e. stepping back) the rubber prior to throwing to first. I can't remember the last time I've seen it.

Don't get out much do you? I saw Jeff Weaver do it twice against the Yankees this week-end. Between feints and actual throws, I'll bet it happens somewhere in the MLB every game day.

Again, I never said it was the number one move. I said it was more prevalent in the majors for RHPs than stepping and throwing. RIF

I can't tell you how much I value your input Dave, but it's time to put you back in the box. Say hi to BigGuy for me.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Again, I never said it was the number one move. I said it was more prevalent in the majors for RHPs than stepping and throwing. RIF

I can't tell you how much I value your input Dave, but it time to put you back in the box. Say hi to BigGuy for me.

They are both rare moves - I agree.

My intention was to simply point out the possible legality of the move described by the initial poster - not to make an assessment of how often it is used. Unquestionably - it's rare.

I got distracted when you mentioned stepping off then throwing. That is also very rare.

This is not to be confused by the common tactic of rapidly stepping off. When this is done, there is almost never a throw. It's usually done to break the runner's rhythm - not to pick him off.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN