Thrown Equipment at Ball

[TussAgee11]

Line drive to right field gets into the gap. I'm in A, cut in to see the touch of first, and then try to go find the ball. I see the glove rolling around on the ground and the fielder chasing the ball with no glove on. Its clear he threw it.

Runner gets to third, I call time to go talk to PU. He says "I saw him throw it, but i'm not sure if it contacted the ball or not. I really can't say either way".

I can make a case for either awarding home (3 bases from time of contact out there, runner was past 1st) because the RF was stupid and threw his glove and made me have to make a tough call OR I can see that neither of us saw the glove touch the ball, or not touch the ball, and without evidence either way, nothing should be called (kind of like indisputable evidence).

Thoughts?

[archangel]

dont call what you didnt see.....

[LMan]

I don't know how you 'make a case' for 'he made me have to make a tough call.' Tough calls happen all the time. If you couldn't defend that case to the coach, then discard it.

You didn't see it, don't call it. It IS 'call what you see', right?

[Jimology]

Agree...can't call what you don't see.

But I'd remind the coach (to remind the player) about the 3 base award if it had been seen.

[DTQ_Blue]

The only time I've ever seen the ball touched with detached equipment was in a movie, "A League of Their Own." The umpire didn't call it.

[David B]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Line drive to right field gets into the gap. I'm in A, cut in to see the touch of first, and then try to go find the ball. I see the glove rolling around on the ground and the fielder chasing the ball with no glove on. Its clear he threw it.

Runner gets to third, I call time to go talk to PU. He says "I saw him throw it, but i'm not sure if it contacted the ball or not. I really can't say either way".

I can make a case for either awarding home (3 bases from time of contact out there, runner was past 1st) because the RF was stupid and threw his glove and made me have to make a tough call OR I can see that neither of us saw the glove touch the ball, or not touch the ball, and without evidence either way, nothing should be called (kind of like indisputable evidence).

Thoughts?

Don't call anything if you aren't certain.

But, line drive in the gap - I think I would be going out toward the play just for this type situation.

Its easy to rim the infield and back to second if needed, PU can always watch the touch at first.

Thanks
David

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Jimology

But I'd remind the coach (to remind the player) about the 3 base award if it had been seen.

Don't coach the Coach...ain't your job!

[shickenbottom]

To echo the concurrence from eveyone else. Don't call what you don see.

Based on the mechanics, it sounds like you came in and executed a proper pivot, watched to touch then glanced up to pick up the ball.

This sounds fine, I disagree with the "rimming" methodology, you as the base ump need to make a decision, either go out and stay out or come in and take the runner arround. The rimming causes nothing but problems, if your partner is athletic and busts out seeing that your out, then you come in and there is a play, now you've got two umps at one play, very bad.

By the way, where was your partner the plate ump? Was he parked behind the dish "diddling" himself or moving out into the infield to observe the fielding of the ball since you came in

[LMan]

Originally Posted by David B

Don't call anything if you aren't certain.

But, line drive in the gap - I think I would be going out toward the play just for this type situation.

Its easy to rim the infield and back to second if needed, PU can always watch the touch at first.

Thanks
David

what mechanics are those?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Line drive to right field gets into the gap. I'm in A, cut in to see the touch of first, and then try to go find the ball. I see the glove rolling around on the ground and the fielder chasing the ball with no glove on. Its clear he threw it.

Runner gets to third, I call time to go talk to PU. He says "I saw him throw it, but i'm not sure if it contacted the ball or not. I really can't say either way".

I can make a case for either awarding home (3 bases from time of contact out there, runner was past 1st) because the RF was stupid and threw his glove and made me have to make a tough call OR I can see that neither of us saw the glove touch the ball, or not touch the ball, and without evidence either way, nothing should be called (kind of like indisputable evidence).

Thoughts?

Here's a thought, if you don't see it, don't make up $hit to cover it!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by David B

Don't call anything if you aren't certain.

But, line drive in the gap - I think I would be going out toward the play just for this type situation.

Its easy to rim the infield and back to second if needed, PU can always watch the touch at first.

Thanks
David

Either go out on the ball, in which case the PU watches the BR touch, and takes him around to 3rd, or come in and pivot, and the PU has the ball all the way. In what mechanics manual do you find this "rimming the infield" move? Sounds awfully softballish to me.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

I've seen some of the older, slower, overweight umpires do this on an obvious double into the gap since the PU will take the triple into third. I guess they work it out in pre-game. I started coming in, giving a glance over my shoulder, and then take the runner into second. I have full vision of the field.

I am older, and overweight too. But I am far from slow. I'm not slow, not fast. . . more like half-assed.

I never have and never will rim the infield. I think if an umpire is that immobile, he should start thinking about hanging up his gear. I have started doing the "over-the-shoulder glance/right turn" instead of a pivot on obvious extra-base hits, but I still do the traditional pivot on routine singles. I have always as BU taken the BR all the way to third, and have yet to be late in arriving. There are ways that we big guys learn to move in order to end up in the right place at the right time.

As I said, anytime an umpire can no longer be in position it's time to quit.

[shickenbottom]

I've never seen the "rimming" mechanic in the Fed Umpire Manual.

This sounds like these umpires you've seen do this attended at one time or another the infamous "Lance Cokalinski Umpire Combine." Held annually at an undisclosed location. The attendees are presented with grading on how best they immitate the master.

[LMan]

Maybe Little League? *shrug*

[David B]

Originally Posted by LMan

what mechanics are those?

Well since you asked ...

I can't believe you guys are so far in the dark that you don't recall Carl's writings on Mechanics for the 21K.

Excellent work and was what we used in TX when I got my training back in the 1980's. We used it in HS and College back in those days and I've still maintained that's the best way to make it work.

So when I came to MS we incorporated those into our system also - and I should mention works very very well.

For a review these are free on the Officiating.com site.

Now there are those groups that I call with that are tried and true "by the book umpires" and I regret that I have to work their mechanics from time to time, but having worked them all, I find that this is a better way IMO.

As Carl writes and as this play illustrates, PU is too far away to make the call, and the BU is busy watching a runner touch 1st which is not as important as whether the ball is caught or not! (or in this situation was touched by the glove or not)

Anyway its excellent reading and I highly recommend it. Its also served me very well for the last 27 years.

And I'll add don't knock it until you've tried it!

Thansk
David