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[johnnyg08]

sorry b-ball guy...didn't mean to come off as what you called me...just that a lot of people on this board ask for opinions then don't want to at least listen to the answers provided. rough morning for me. thanks for your question...congrats on 10,000 posts.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Justanotherblue wrote:

"It's often thought that one can't balk to second base. Well, you can, . . ."

It Is Impossible To Balk TO Second Base.

If this is an English/writing lesson, you're probably correct...

[Tim C]

No Johnny, my statement is based on the rules of baseball as played in the United States of America.

Even Jim Evans agrees with my basic statement.

Regards,

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by Tim C

No Johnny, my statement is based on the rules of baseball as played in the United States of America.

Even Jim Evans agrees with my basic statement.

Regards,

Not according to what he says in his balk video. I thought that was based on the rules of baseball.

[johnnyg08]

That's the video I've watched several times...that's where I'm now confused!

[Tim C]

This will be my last post to this thread (I know some of you are already getting happier):

Please stick with me while I go through this yet another time.

There is a difference between balking TO second base and balking with a runner ON second base.

All the normal technical balks can be made with a runner ON second base (i.e dropping the ball when getting into the set position or failing to make a stop somewhere during the pitching motion). That is not an arguement.

SDS feels that any balk made while a runner ON second base is a balk TO second. He would be considered correct by many (including Jim Evans).

In my discussion with Evans (with Garth B present) we covered the following possibilities that eventually end in legal plays or balks that involve a runner at second base:

1) No one will argue that when pitcher turns to second while in contact with the pitcher's plate he is not required to throw,

2) No one will argue that when a pitcher turns to second that throws make he makes does not have go to the base, he can throw to any fielder located at any location.

3) No one will argue that since the pitcher does not, by rule, need to throw to second on any pickoff attempt we know that the regulations involving a "feint" are also moot.

So let's get to the real issue.

When does the pitcher not gain ground on an attempt and how does this impact my statement?

Play:

F1 is in the set position. Ball is in his glove at his belt. He takes NO STEP in any direction and simply flips the ball back to second base. He has BALKED!

The balk, however, is for failing to complete the pitch NOT a balk for failing to gain direction.

Evans agrees that in an essence my statement is correct. Where the two of us disagree is WHY the statement is made.

We use, IIITBTSB, to help umpires recognize that second and third base are different than first base. We also use the statement to help umpire understand that there is a difference in pitching regulations between second base and third base.

For the last 10 years both Carl Childress and I have asked for anyone to give us an example of "a balk to second base." No one has ever sent us an example.

I am just as correct to say "It Is Impossible To Balk To Second Base" as I am to say "and Jim Evans agrees with me."

Evans agrees with the statement but says that I am wrong to TEACH THAT WAY!

And with this post I will slide back into my cave and drop off the posting lists yet again.

I remain,

"The Notorious Thread Deleter"

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Not according to what he says in his balk video. I thought that was based on the rules of baseball.

That was made years before he met Tee.

I was a witness and interested bystander during the coonversation Tee and Jim had in Portland. Jim agreed with Tee's literal assessment, but explained that in common practice he would continue referring to some balks as balks to second, because "that's what they look like to the average fan, coach, player and umpire." Then he actually gave an example of how Tee was correct... a balk when a pitcher attempted to throw to second but was actually a balk to home.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Justanotherblue wrote:

"It's often thought that one can't balk to second base. Well, you can, . . ."

It Is Impossible To Balk TO Second Base.

It IS possible to balk to second base. Committing a balk with a runner on first is balking a player TO 2B. It's a matter of separating the noun from the verb. They are not interchangeable. "To" balk means to commit a pitching infraction. "A" balk is the pitching infraction itself. So "to balk to second" means committing a balk that sends a runner to second.

Is it nit-picking, most certainly yes - however, you raised the issue.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

It IS possible to balk to second base. Committing a balk with a runner on first is balking a player TO 2B. It's a matter of separating the noun from the verb. They are not interchangeable. "To" balk means to commit a pitching infraction. "A" balk is the pitching infraction itself. So "to balk to second" means committing a balk that sends a runner to second.

Is it nit-picking, most certainly yes - however, you raised the issue.

Wrong. Runners don't balk. Pitchers balk. Runners advance to second base.

[justanotherblue]

You know, that's the best thing about this place. Sarcasim, baseball and an english lesson all in one!

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

It IS possible to balk to second base. Committing a balk with a runner on first is balking a player TO 2B. It's a matter of separating the noun from the verb. They are not interchangeable. "To" balk means to commit a pitching infraction. "A" balk is the pitching infraction itself. So "to balk to second" means committing a balk that sends a runner to second.

Is it nit-picking, most certainly yes - however, you raised the issue.

Using your twisted logic of language...what would a "balk to first" be? I've never seen a balk that sent a runner to first. But, then, the sky is blue in my world. What color is it in yours?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

You know, that's the best thing about this place. Sarcasim, baseball and an english lesson all in one!

You need to capitalize "english".

Originally Posted by GarthB

Using your twisted logic of language...what would a "balk to first" be? I've never seen a balk that sent a runner to first. But, then, the sky is blue in my world. What color is it in yours?

There isn't by definition because the balk rule doesn't apply to batters - only runners. You could have a balk to second, third or home.

Look at my twisted logic on this one. Try the term WALK.

F1 gives up a WALK - Noun, Base on balls
F1 WALKS in the winning run. Walks in this case refers to the action of giving a base on balls and forcing the winning run in from 3B.

Same thing, different word - balk

F1 commits a Balk -noun
F1 balks R1 TO second. The action of pitcher forces R1 to move to 2B, therefore it is a balk to 2B.

You could use bunt as an example as well. B1 bunted R1 TO 2B.

If you want to know where my twisted logic comes from - I'm a chemical engineer whose 29-year career is based on thinking with logic. And like I said, I'm not the one who raised the issue.

Just ask a good accountant "what's one and one" and the accountant says "whatever you want it to be". Is it realistic - no. But it is perception. What Tim C thinks in his post is an absolute - you can't balk TO 2B. My logic says you can and I proved it, despite the fact that that was maybe not what he intended. I read his statement literally since there were no qualifiers and responded accordingly.

[johnnyg08]

You people spend too much time arguing semantics...if only we were as good at umpiring as we were at critiquing other people's sentences...we'd all be in the bigs...if we were on the field, I'm sure we'd agree on much of what's being talked about here. (Well, maybe not) :-)

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

If you want to know where my twisted logic comes from - I'm a chemical engineer

That explains your ideas of English.

Balk to first. Let's stay consistent with usage Mr. Logic.