Two questions from a coach please...

[Jerry]

Archangel:
There are a couple of rules and guidance documents, at least in OBR and possibly in FED as well. "If a ball strikes a piece of equipment that is on LBT (usually the lip or top step of a dugout), and such ball would have entered DBT absent the contact with such equipment, then the ball is considered to have entered DBT." (OBR)

"If equipment left lying on LBT alters a play in favor of the offending team, the umpires are authorized to nullify the advantage by awarding bases, declaring outs, returning runners, etc." (FED)

Jerry

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by archangel

Re; the coach on the bucket...depending on the rule set, if the runner was standing on 3rd(not trying to advance) when the ball hit the bucket, and runner then didnt try to advance- I'd have nothing........I'd give the runner home if there was any chance that said runner was trying to advance, or in a position to(off bag between 3rd and home/watching the throw)- no advantage given to defense by me sending the runner back to 3rd.....

Or if the ball striking the bucket prevented it from going out of play ... I'd give the base.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I didn't post it to make you feel like an idiot. If you want to, you can delete the post, I'll delete both of mine, and we'll pretend it never happened. We are the only two up this late anyway!

I know you wern't trying to make me feel like an idiot, I did that on my own . We'll leave the posts, it will be a reminder that I should read the entire post before commenting.

[justanotherblue]

Steve and Sohl... feel like an idiot, ahhhhh GUILTY... your right sohl... read it all, I briefly read 9-4a, saw the three free trips, posted it, then said to self...that can't be right, that's why I went back and added the second post. I knew better, read the three visits....thought..hmmm....posted...said to self, that can't be right...read on... and oops....

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Steve and Sohl... feel like an idiot, ahhhhh GUILTY... your right sohl... read it all, I briefly read 9-4a, saw the three free trips, posted it, then said to self...that can't be right, that's why I went back and added the second post. I knew better, read the three visits....thought..hmmm....posted...said to self, that can't be right...read on... and oops....

Actually, I was corrected. For FED, it is (3) free trips and removal on 4th and subsequent trips. Is NCAA different?

Originally Posted by MarionTiger

Okay, thanks. So without names on the jerseys, how is this verified? I've been in the other situation as well, where the number was right, but the name on the line up card did not match the name on the jersey, and was told the number was what mattered. Is it so difficult to have ALL of the information correct? I must admit, I have not looked very hard for a written rule on this, but will do so. Seems a given the accuracy of this would be mandatory.

Case book 1-1-3 Situation, page 4

1.1.3 SITUATION: F4, Brown, listed in the batting order as wearing uniform No. 4, is wearing No. 21. After reaching base in the third inning, defensive coach appeals to the umpire that Brown is batting out of order. RULING: While Brown is in technical violation of the rule that requires that player's name, shirt number and position be on the lineup card, there is no penalty, since the batting-out-of-order rule requires only that the name be in the proper order. If the number was correct but the player batting was not Brown, the batting-out-of-order penalty would be imposed. Listing of both numbers and positions provides easier recordkeeping for scorekeepers and umpires.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

Actually, I was corrected. For FED, it is (3) free trips and removal on 4th and subsequent trips. Is NCAA different?

Slightly. In FED, the team can use the three trips anytime (in regulation). In NCAA, a second trip to the same pitcher int he same inning causes the removal, and the second trip can't occur with the same batter.

In extra innings, FED gets one trip per inning (not one trip per pitcher per inning) and unused trips from regulation do not carry over. In NCAA, teh team gets one extra trip if the game goes to extra innings, and unused trips do carry over.

[MarionTiger]

Originally Posted by LMan

I suggest a 'retina scan'. But seriously, does your league have an issue with 11 year old kids running around under assumed names? Call the kid's name loudly, and see who turns around....


Well, you sometimes have kids who show up without a jersey and borrow one, etc. But that's an issue for your league and your coaches. The umpire should check over the lineup at the plate meeting for duplicate numbers, names, etc. But if the numbers and names don't conflict on the lineup but there's still an error, that's all he can do at that time. He ain't going to the dugout to check IDs.

So why have numbers at all?

Seriously, I said I wasn't mad about it.

[MarionTiger]

Originally Posted by archangel

Re; the coach on the bucket...depending on the rule set, if the runner was standing on 3rd(not trying to advance) when the ball hit the bucket, and runner then didnt try to advance- I'd have nothing........I'd give the runner home if there was any chance that said runner was trying to advance, or in a position to(off bag between 3rd and home/watching the throw)- no advantage given to defense by me sending the runner back to 3rd.....

Not seeing where the ball would have gone to, how would you know if the runner could advance. As the third base coach in this situation, I can tell you that depending on the riccochet off the fence, we may have tried it.

After this game, the umpire advised me that he should have given the runner the base. But it did not matter ultimately.

[DG]

Someone point me to a rule that mentions the bucket please?

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by Jerry

Archangel:
There are a couple of rules and guidance documents, at least in OBR and possibly in FED as well. "If a ball strikes a piece of equipment that is on LBT (usually the lip or top step of a dugout), and such ball would have entered DBT absent the contact with such equipment, then the ball is considered to have entered DBT." (OBR)

Jerry

Jerry, where did you find this OBR ruling?

[UmpJM]

DG,

Under OBR, the following works for me:

3.14
Members of the offensive team shall carry all gloves and other equipment off the field and to the dugout while their team is at bat. No equipment shall be left lying on the field, either in fair or foul territory.

Under FED, I think 1-3-7 does the trick:

...Loose equipment, such as gloves, bats, helmets or catcher's gear, of either team may not be on or near the field.
Penalty: If loose equipment interferes with play, the umpire may call an out(s), award bases or return runners, based on his judgment and the circumstances concerning the play.

Edited to add, in response to bossman's query:

From the JEA discsussion of 3.14:

Customs and Usage: Umpires should monitor the area in front of the dugouts and insure that gloves and
equipment are not left lying on the playing field. Equipment lying on the "lip" of the dugout is legal but a thrown ball
that strikes it is considered "in the dugout".

JM

[DG]

JM

3.14 carrys no penalty.

1-3-7 provides for umpire to use judgement.

JEA comment on 3.14 allows me to rule that a thrown ball was prevented from entering the dugout by a glove on the lip of the dugout so I should rule it would have entered the dugout and thus DBT and award bases accordingly.

Now let's say the runner rounded 3B, did not appear to have any intention
of going home on the overthrow, the ball bounces off the bucket. Unless hitting the bucket prevented the ball from entering DBT, I have nothing. I don't see an "automatic" on this in OBR or FED.

Of course OBR is not going to cover coaches sitting on buckets outside the dugout because it ain't happening, and shouldn't happen in FED, so the rules can't completely cover stuff that ain't supposed to be happening.

[UmpJM]

DG,

I believe we are on the same page on this question. If I'm the umpire, all of the benefit of the doubt is going in favor of the team whose coach wasn't sitting on a bucket outside the dugout.

JM

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

DG,

I believe we are on the same page on this question. If I'm the umpire, all of the benefit of the doubt is going in favor of the team whose coach wasn't sitting on a bucket outside the dugout.

JM

All we have to do as umpires is award the appropriate team and it will start to curtail the practice real quick, this is if they refuse to comply to your request to move into the dugout of course.