base awards

[newump]

R1 running on the pitch. no outs. fly ball to F7. R1 makes the turn at second and then realizes that the ball will be caught. he slams on the brakes and begins to retreat. F7's throw is released while R1 is still on the 3rd base side of 2nd base. F7's throw goes out of play while R1 is still on the 3rd base side of 2nd.
1. should R1 be awarded home since he was had already reached 2nd, or 3rd since he had to tag up at 1st prior to advancing?
2. is R1 still allowed to tag up even though he was on or beyond 2nd when the ball was thrown out of play?
3. assuming that R1 does not retreat all the way to 1st and tag up prior to accepting his award, is the defense precluded from appealing again at first, because they already had their one chance to appeal - and they threw it out of play?
fed, ncaa, obr - any differences? rule citations would be appreciated.
sorry for so many questions.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by newump

R1 running on the pitch. no outs. fly ball to F7. R1 makes the turn at second and then realizes that the ball will be caught. he slams on the brakes and begins to retreat. F7's throw is released while R1 is still on the 3rd base side of 2nd base. F7's throw goes out of play while R1 is still on the 3rd base side of 2nd.
1. should R1 be awarded home since he was had already reached 2nd, or 3rd since he had to tag up at 1st prior to advancing?
2. is R1 still allowed to tag up even though he was on or beyond 2nd when the ball was thrown out of play?
3. assuming that R1 does not retreat all the way to 1st and tag up prior to accepting his award, is the defense precluded from appealing again at first, because they already had their one chance to appeal - and they threw it out of play?
fed, ncaa, obr - any differences? rule citations would be appreciated.
sorry for so many questions.

1. Award him third (90% sure on this one)
2. FED- no, he is subject to appeal. OBR- he may legally retouch since he didn't ADVANCE to the next base when the ball became dead.
3. You are allowed to appeal first again since the first one was during playing action. The only time you lose your appeals is when you screw up during relaxed action.

[newump]

Originally Posted by bossman72

1. Award him third (90% sure on this one)
2. FED- no, he is subject to appeal. OBR- he may legally retouch since he didn't ADVANCE to the next base when the ball became dead.
3. You are allowed to appeal first again since the first one was during playing action. The only time you lose your appeals is when you screw up during relaxed action.

1. i think you are correct - but i'm not sure what rule to cite. i know obr cites 2 bases from time of throw - where is the exception for this award not to apply in this scenerio

2. i don't think R1 is allowed to return to retag 1st at this point. OBR 7.10 approved ruling - 'when the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

3. i think the defense is out of luck. in obr i think the defense is allowed only one chance at making the appeal. all appeals are during live ball "playing action" whether the appeal is made immediately - as in my situation, or following a time out, the ball must be live for a proper appeal

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by newump

R1 running on the pitch. no outs. fly ball to F7. R1 makes the turn at second and then realizes that the ball will be caught. he slams on the brakes and begins to retreat. F7's throw is released while R1 is still on the 3rd base side of 2nd base. F7's throw goes out of play while R1 is still on the 3rd base side of 2nd.
1. should R1 be awarded home since he was had already reached 2nd, or 3rd since he had to tag up at 1st prior to advancing?
2. is R1 still allowed to tag up even though he was on or beyond 2nd when the ball was thrown out of play?
3. assuming that R1 does not retreat all the way to 1st and tag up prior to accepting his award, is the defense precluded from appealing again at first, because they already had their one chance to appeal - and they threw it out of play?
fed, ncaa, obr - any differences? rule citations would be appreciated.
sorry for so many questions.

1) Award home, otherwise you are telling the defense that he has to retag. If the runner goes back and re-tags, THEN you change the award to third base.

2) In OBR, yes. In FED, no. The OBR rule means you can't retreat if you touch the next base AFTER the ball became dead.

3) No. They only lose the right if they throw it out of play after continuous action has ceased.

[newump]

#3
i don't see how the defense can appeal again once they throw the ball out of play. where do you find the reference to "continuous action"
OBR
7.10 explantion following sub section (d)
"successive appeals may not be made on a runner at the same base. If the defensive team on its first appeal errs, a request for a second appeal on the same runner at the same base shall not be allowed by the umpire. (Intended meaning of the word "err" is that the defensive team in making an appeal threw the ball out of play.)"

i can't find a distinction which allows for a 2nd appeal just because the first appeal took place during "continuous action"

[UmpJM]

newump,

The basic situation you pose is that a runner who is under a retouch obligation (in your example, 1B) is beyond his advance base (2B) both at the time the ball became dead and at the time of throw (TOT).

#2. Under...

OBR - he is allowed to complete his retouch as long as after the ball became dead he does not proceed to or past the base beyond where he is at the time the ball became dead (3B in your example).

NCAA - he is allowed to complete his retouch as long as he is attempting to return to his retouch base at the time the ball becomes dead (in the umpire's judgement).

FED - he is not allowed to complete his retouch obligation, unless the umpire judges that the defense intentionally threw the ball out of play to prevent his retouch. Absent such judgement, even if he physically goes back and properly retouches, he is still liable to an appeal.

#3. The defense may still appeal, even though they threw the ball out of play during their initial attempt to appeal during the continuous action of the play, as bossman & Rich Ives suggest. You will not find this stated anywhere in the text of the rules. The J/R provides a thorough explanation of this principle, and it is treated the same in all three codes.

#1. There are two schools of thought on whether the umpire (in your situation) should properly award the runner 3B or Home.

One school says the umpire should initially award the runner Home, because, at the TOT he was beyond 2B. Since this is certainly a TOT award, 2 bases beyond 2B is clearly home. If the runner subsequently legally completes his retouch obligation, the umpire then changes his award to an award of 3B (2bases beyond his "original" or retouch base.) This school is supported by the MLBUM and is what Rich Ives suggested.

The other school of thought says that if the runne ris "obviously" attempting to return at the time the ball becomes dead, simply award him 2 bases from his original base and dispense with the rigamarole of first awarding him Home and then "changing" the award to 3B. This rulling is supported in J/R and by Carl Childress. This is consistent with what bossman suggested.

Personally, I like the second school of thought on this question a little better, & that's what I'd do if this situation occurred in a game I was working.

JM

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Personally, I like the second school of thought on this question a little better, & that's what I'd do if this situation occurred in a game I was working.

So do I. And, it was discussd at theis year's NCAA meeting. It was suggested to use the wording, "You are awarded third." That way, if R1 doesn't return to first before accepting the award, the manager can't complain that we told the runner to proceed diretly to third.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

1) Award home, otherwise you are telling the defense that he has to retag. If the runner goes back and re-tags, THEN you change the award to third base.

R1 running on the pitch.

You are not telling the defense anything that they already do not know.

R1 was off with pitch and the ball was caught.

Everyone in the park knows that R1 has to go back and retouch first base.

The award in the scenario given is third base.

Here's where you award the runner home base.

R1: B1 singles

R1 misses second base and is trying for third. The defense in making a play on R1 at third base and throws the ball into DBT.

In the aforementioned scenario even though R1 missed second base you still award R1 home because if you didn't then you just told the defense that R1 missed second base.

2 totally different situations.

In the first situation you award the runner third because everyone knew that R1 had to retag 1st base and you are not "tipping the balance of power".

In the second scenario you award the runner home because to do otherwise you are "tipping the balance of power"

Pete Booth

[Rich Ives]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

R1 running on the pitch.

You are not telling the defense anything that they already do not know.

R1 was off with pitch and the ball was caught.

Everyone in the park knows that R1 has to go back and retouch first base.

The award in the scenario given is third base.

Here's where you award the runner home base.

R1: B1 singles

R1 misses second base and is trying for third. The defense in making a play on R1 at third base and throws the ball into DBT.

In the aforementioned scenario even though R1 missed second base you still award R1 home because if you didn't then you just told the defense that R1 missed second base.

2 totally different situations.

In the first situation you award the runner third because everyone knew that R1 had to retag 1st base and you are not "tipping the balance of power".

In the second scenario you award the runner home because to do otherwise you are "tipping the balance of power"

Pete Booth

My comment is based on the MLBUM. I'll take their interpretation over yours.

MLBUM Section 5.10.


"Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when
the wild throw is made.

"Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return
to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base)."

[newump]

thanks for all the info. i still don't like the idea of the defense getting two cracks at an appeal.

is there anywhere i can get a copy of the mlbum?

[newump]

and why is the runner allowed to retouch. hasn't he touched a base (2nd) beyond the base he has left early??

OBR 7.10 approved ruling - 'when the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by newump

and why is the runner allowed to retouch. hasn't he touched a base (2nd) beyond the base he has left early??

OBR 7.10 approved ruling - 'when the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

JM and I both answered that.

The OBR rule means you can't retreat if you touch the next base AFTER the ball became dead.


"i still don't like the idea of the defense getting two cracks at an appeal."

You don't have to like it but you have to allow it.

You can either comprehend and move on or remain a new ump forever. Your choice.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by newump

thanks for all the info. i still don't like the idea of the defense getting two cracks at an appeal.

is there anywhere i can get a copy of the mlbum?

Then don't consider the live-ball action an appeal. It's merely throwing the ball to F3. Yeah - you probably can assume that this is for the purposes of an appeal, but since it's a live ball, it could be any number of things, conceivably. Don't consider that play an attempt at an appeal while the ball is still live until the play actually BECOMES a live-ball appeal (ie - someone with the ball touching the appeal base), and you won't have any trouble with the logic of allowing a dead-ball appeal at this base later.

From the FED 8-3-5
ART. 5... An award is from the base determined as follows:

a. If the award is the penalty for an infraction such as a balk, use of detached player equipment, or an illegal glove/mitt, the award is from the base occupied at the time of the infraction.
b. If any pitch (batted or unbatted) is followed by a dead ball before the pitcher is in position for the next pitch and before there is any throw by the fielding team, any award is from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. If every runner, including the batter-runner, has advanced one base at the time of the first play, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw.


The above would tend to indicate the runner is awarded 3rd.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

From the FED 8-3-5
ART. 5... An award is from the base determined as follows:

a. If the award is the penalty for an infraction such as a balk, use of detached player equipment, or an illegal glove/mitt, the award is from the base occupied at the time of the infraction.
b. If any pitch (batted or unbatted) is followed by a dead ball before the pitcher is in position for the next pitch and before there is any throw by the fielding team, any award is from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. If every runner, including the batter-runner, has advanced one base at the time of the first play, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw.


The above would tend to indicate the runner is awarded 3rd.

We know that. That's the "ultimate" award any time. How it is handled is different in OBR and FED.

Also, in FED for the play at hand, the runner cannot re-tag first. In OBR he can.