Two-ump question - check swing

[Shmuelg]

Hi folks,

I ump and coach baseball here in Israel (yes!). Our games have two umps (if we're lucky!).

I have been told by a few folks here that if the BU is behind 2nd or SS (ie, not at first base), then the PU cannot refer to him for an appealed check swing. The reasoning is that the BU cannot see the swing from where he is standing, as he has to be down the line (first base or third base).

So, the question is twofold: Is this how you guys work?
Secondly, say the PU *does* ask the BU for help, by pointing at him. What is the BU to do?


My take on it is that the BU should be able to do this, as I think he can clearly see if the batter intended to swing or not. Whether he "broke his wrists" or not is only a small indicator of his intent. You can tell if a batter wanted to hit that ball, it's usually straight-forward.

What do you folks say?

Thanks,

Shmuel
www.eteamz.com/revavabaseball

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Shmuelg

Hi folks,

I ump and coach baseball here in Israel (yes!). Our games have two umps (if we're lucky!).

I have been told by a few folks here that if the BU is behind 2nd or SS (ie, not at first base), then the PU cannot refer to him for an appealed check swing. The reasoning is that the BU cannot see the swing from where he is standing, as he has to be down the line (first base or third base).

So, the question is twofold: Is this how you guys work?
Secondly, say the PU *does* ask the BU for help, by pointing at him. What is the BU to do?


My take on it is that the BU should be able to do this, as I think he can clearly see if the batter intended to swing or not. Whether he "broke his wrists" or not is only a small indicator of his intent. You can tell if a batter wanted to hit that ball, it's usually straight-forward.

What do you folks say?

Thanks,

Shmuel
www.eteamz.com/revavabaseball

A check swing appeal can be made from anywhere on the field. If you are playing by OBR or NCAA rules, the plate umpire is required to ask his partner.

[justanotherblue]

Yes, you can ask for help. After the check swing, you should be calling BALL, No he didn't go. That is if you think he didn't go. If the defense asks for an appeal, you simply step out and ask your partner with your LEFT hand, Did he go. Your partner, should respond either, Yes he did or No, he didn't go. If he says yes he did, then you respond, Then that's a strike. There is no doubt it's a hard call for BU, but then again, that's a known problem with two man.

[DG]

"If you are in the infield and we have check swing appeal I will come to you, I am automatic, if they ask I come to you. If I missed a strike I want it back".

This is in my pregame, every time.

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

There is no doubt it's a hard call for BU, but then again, that's a known problem with two man.

Hard call? Not at all: did B or did he not attempt to hit the ball?
If you are 100% sure he did offer- YES, HE DID - "then that's a strike"
If you are not 100% sure he did - NO, HE DID NOT!

And, yeah, what DG said.

I see the board server has not "sprung forward".

I agree that your partner can help no matter where he is at! It is not that hard to call really, and each year, it is becoming more accepted that the BU can call it correctly from B or C!

Fans still don't like it. But, they are the same dummies who at a recent game I was on the plate claimed that a foul tip was a foul ball and the runner who stole should go back!

[btdt]

Around here it has been accepted ever since I have been umpiring. Being as all umpire manuels I have say the same thing you would think it is an accepted practice everywhere. (except nfhs were pu isn't required, but should) If it isn't accepted in your area I can't help but ask ... who's running the show and why arn't they following sop?

[PeteBooth]

The applicable rules are:

OBR 9.01
(a) The league president shall appoint one or more umpires to officiate at each league championship game.


Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike.

Notice the rules do not say ANYTHING about the position of the BU.

As Rich said in OBR / NCAA we have to. In FED (HS rules) we do not "have to" however, even in a FED game most PU's will oblige.

Secondly, say the PU *does* ask the BU for help, by pointing at him. What is the BU to do?

If I'm the BU I give the PU what I saw. Safe signal for a ball and an out signal for a strike.



Pete Booth

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by cbfoulds

Hard call? Not at all: did B or did he not attempt to hit the ball?
If you are 100% sure he did offer- YES, HE DID - "then that's a strike"
If you are not 100% sure he did - NO, HE DID NOT!

And, yeah, what DG said.

I see the board server has not "sprung forward".

Simply put, when your in A with a left handed batter, it's not as easy to see as with a right handed batter, where you can clearly see the barrel of the bat, hands and hips of the batter. Not as clearly seen with a left handed batter. Same thing in B or C. There are angle advantages and not. Hard call, no, clearly seeing the bat breaking the plane of the plate, not so easily seen. Can I read the intent, probably, true travel of the bat head, probably not, can I make the call, you bet I will, either way, If I believe there was intent, with a good offer, no problem.

As for why others don't ask, or say you can't ask or see from the working area, training, knowledge, and a willingness to improve game to game. To quote Jim Evans, because Charlie wasn't taught it, it won't work.

[canadaump6]

What is the reason for plate umpires not making the call on the check swing in the first place? Do they usually get blocked by the catcher, are they more focused on whether the ball was in the strike zone, or do they not want to give the teams something else to argue with them about?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

What is the reason for plate umpires not making the call on the check swing in the first place? Do they usually get blocked by the catcher, are they more focused on whether the ball was in the strike zone, or do they not want to give the teams something else to argue with them about?

Door number 2.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

What is the reason for plate umpires not making the call on the check swing in the first place? Do they usually get blocked by the catcher, are they more focused on whether the ball was in the strike zone, or do they not want to give the teams something else to argue with them about?

They have made a call. They've called the pitch a ball.

[DG]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Simply put, when your in A with a left handed batter, it's not as easy to see as with a right handed batter

Like I said in pre-game, I'm automatic, so don't go to sleep in A with a LH batter. If you can't tell then fine, say "no he didn't go". If you can tell he did then I want the strike back.

Originally Posted by btdt

Around here it has been accepted ever since I have been umpiring. Being as all umpire manuels I have say the same thing you would think it is an accepted practice everywhere. (except nfhs were pu isn't required, but should) If it isn't accepted in your area I can't help but ask ... who's running the show and why arn't they following sop?

By "accepted", I mean by coaches/players. Some still "protest" loudly when the BU gives a strike while in B or C.

As umpires, we have accepted that "help" for as long as I can remember.

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Door number 2.

So basically they are more focused on whether it's a ball or strike?