play at the plate

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Really? Then why not post the USSSA rule reference that shows how to make the call? So far, no one has been able to do this in this thread! We all know the FED says no, the runner cannot hurdle a fielder unless the fielder is prone. We all know that OBR says nothing about it. We all know that LL doesn't allow it either. So pray tell, enlighten us to the USSSA BS rule, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

LL does allow hurdling.

[clips2]

high scholl NFHS it is illeagal and he is out

[a1umpire]

I have been an umpire for many years in N.C. doing USSSA baseball we never go by Fed.rules.We go by the USSSA rules and anything not covered in those rules goes back to the OBR rules. Therefore it is leagle to hurdle the catcher.I have had this happen a few times and always called them safe.We never EVER go by the Fed. book.

[Old Time Ump]

2Rad4U, I dont mean to depart from the thread here, but are you under the impression that sliding is 'safer' than hurdling? For whom? The percentage of broken and sprained ankles incurred by young men sliding is many times greater than those injured hurdling. And more severe. Pursue this with the insurance company who handles your high school and /or municipal insurance.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

LL does allow hurdling.

Really? I could have sworn that LL said no hurdling! Oh well, you are the better authority on the LL rules.

I stand corrected.

Regards
Ozzy

[DG]

I just hate it when folks mix and match, and then complain that the umps don't know THE RULES.

[Dave Reed]

...just this year, and only recently added to the website. You can see them at http://http://www.usssabaseball.org/...les.Jan.19.pdf

Look at rule 8.07.G. It references "slide or seek to avoid contact". It also includes the phrase "Malicious contact shall supercede all obstruction penalties."
I don't see hurdling explicitly mentioned, but clearly the inspiration for this aspect of the rules is FED. So call the hurdler out!

[UmpJM]

Dave R.,

Look at rule 8.07.G. It references "slide or seek to avoid contact". It also includes the phrase "Malicious contact shall supercede all obstruction penalties."
I don't see hurdling explicitly mentioned, but clearly the inspiration for this aspect of the rules is FED. So call the hurdler out!

Hmmm,

Interesting train of thought.

If I'm following your logic correctly, if hurling had been explicitly mentioned, you would suggest calling the runner safe. Yes?

Or, alternatively, perhaps you would suggest that the FED "gorilla balk" rule should be strictly enforced for USSSA games?

Anyway, I'm not buyin' it.

Is "hurdling" a fielder kinda "risky"? Sure. Baseball can be a dangerous game. But, it certainly ain't malicious contact. And, under the USSSA ruleset, it's certainly not illegal.

Leave making up rules to coaches.

JM

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

If I'm following your logic correctly, if hurling had been explicitly mentioned, you would suggest calling the runner safe. Yes?
Or, alternatively, perhaps you would suggest that the FED "gorilla balk" rule should be strictly enforced for USSSA games?
JM

If hurdling were explicitly mentioned, I would suggest calling safe or out according to the directive of the rule.

Your alternative inference regarding "gorilla balk" isn't appropriate either: the USSSA pitching rules (8.08) are very closely copied from OBR, and do not resemble FED rules.

USSSA rules are a combination of at least two rulesets. We all know that the rules alone aren't sufficient-- that's why we have casebooks and umpire manuals. When an umpire is trying to decide if a particular action by a runner meets the requirement to "seek to avoid contact", he can't use OBR concepts, because "seeking to avoid contact" or "malicious contact" isn't part of those rules. He should invoke FED concepts, because that is the origination of this particular rule. Note that FED does not have a rule against hurdling, but rulebook comments and the casebook describe it as an illegal attempt to avoid unless the fielder is prone.

Neither I nor a coach is making up a rule regarding hurdling; the proper question here is whether the FED casebok ruling and rulebook comments should apply to USSSA games. I submit that this part of the USSSA rules derives from FED rules, and not OBR, and the intrepretations should be consistent with FED.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

If hurdling were explicitly mentioned, I would suggest calling safe or out according to the directive of the rule.

Your alternative inference regarding "gorilla balk" isn't appropriate either: the USSSA pitching rules (8.08) are very closely copied from OBR, and do not resemble FED rules.

USSSA rules are a combination of at least two rulesets. We all know that the rules alone aren't sufficient-- that's why we have casebooks and umpire manuals. When an umpire is trying to decide if a particular action by a runner meets the requirement to "seek to avoid contact", he can't use OBR concepts, because "seeking to avoid contact" or "malicious contact" isn't part of those rules. He should invoke FED concepts, because that is the origination of this particular rule. Note that FED does not have a rule against hurdling, but rulebook comments and the casebook describe it as an illegal attempt to avoid unless the fielder is prone.

Neither I nor a coach is making up a rule regarding hurdling; the proper question here is whether the FED casebok ruling and rulebook comments should apply to USSSA games. I submit that this part of the USSSA rules derives from FED rules, and not OBR, and the intrepretations should be consistent with FED.

Dave,


If I were to use this logic would LL 7.08 (a-3) be a rule derived not from OBR, but from FED?


Tim.

[ozzy6900]

Well now I can safely say that combining rulebooks is just a bunch of BS! I have never seen such a mess of rules as this .pdf!

That said, rule 8.07.G is a lawyers dream! Surely, any sane umpire will shy away from doing these games so that they don't loose their home and possessions because the runners must do one or the other!

__________________________________________________ _

8.07.G

Whenever a tag play is evident, the runners must slide or seek to avoid contact with the fielder. Malicious contact shall supersede all obstruction penalties.

Penalty:

Runner shall be called out and may be ejected from the game at the umpire’s discretion.

Rule 8.07.G Comment:

When enforcing this rule, the umpire should judge the runner’s intent. If the umpire feels that the contact was unintentional, then the runner should only be declared out. If the umpire feels that the contact was intentional and / or malicious, then the runner should be declared out and ejected.

__________________________________________________ ________

No wonder "umpires don't know the rules" in this league!

[PeteBooth]

[Pursue this with the insurance company who handles your high school and /or municipal insurance.

[/QUOTE]

Apparantly FED did that's why it's illegal to hurdle (unless a player is lying on the ground) in a FED game. If it was not an insurance issue the rule would not exist.

While there can be injuries sliding, one can get seriously injured by hurdling.
Let's take a play at the plate, the kid hurdles, but F2 applies the tag and since the kid is in mid air, he could land on his back, neck area causing serious damage.


Pete Booth

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Dave,

If I were to use this logic would LL 7.08 (a-3) be a rule derived not from OBR, but from FED?

Tim.

Tim,
Probably this was a rhetorical question, but....
You'll notice that 7.08 (a-1) and (a-2) are exactly the same in OBR and in LL. Rules a-3 and a-4 (headfirst slide) are additions made by LL which don't match FED rules in language or intent. If you need an interpretation of the LL rulebook, you should use "The Right Call" and the RIM. If those publications don't address the issue, then my advice is to resort to OBR interpretations.

And in case the question wasn't rhetorical, let me add that the LL rules are most assuredly based on OBR, with a whole raft of changes mostly driven by the age and ability of the participants. Most of the changes do not resemble FED (or any other set of) rules, e.g. no leading off, red flags, the "poof rule", MPR. We can quite properly categorize them as Little League rules.

[DTQ_Blue]

The LL rule says the runner must slide or "attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make the tag."

The leaping runner is out in LL.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue

The LL rule says the runner must slide or "attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make the tag."

The leaping runner is out in LL.

Once again - hurdling is legal in LL.

Reference:= LL Rules Instruction Manual instructor comments regarding 7.08(a)(3)

"Hurdling or going over the defensive player that has the ball and is waiting to make a tag is a legal maneuver. Rule 7.08(a) (3) does not prevent or make illegal hurdling."