foul tip - rule question

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Evans retorted that if the pitch can be hit for a home run how could anyone say it is not a "foul tip" and Roder folded . . . to Roder's credit: he talked with the entire MLB staff and they all agreed it would be a foul tip!

If there are two strikes and the batter swings and misses at the bounced pitch he becomes a runner and can advance to first base. Now let's say that the batter does better than missing the pitch, this time he tips it to the catcher. Now this is a foul tip and he is out.

In the first play the batter did not contact the ball and he was not out. In the second play the batter did a better job at making contact with the ball but he is called out. Isn't that penalizing the batter for hitting the ball?

I'm not saying that Roder's old way of calling this is correct, I'm just giving some input to the situation.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by LDUB

If there are two strikes and the batter swings and misses at the bounced pitch he becomes a runner and can advance to first base. Now let's say that the batter does better than missing the pitch, this time he tips it to the catcher. Now this is a foul tip and he is out.

In the first play the batter did not contact the ball and he was not out. In the second play the batter did a better job at making contact with the ball but he is called out. Isn't that penalizing the batter for hitting the ball?

I'm not saying that Roder's old way of calling this is correct, I'm just giving some input to the situation.

Let's say that the pitch doesn't hit the ground...in fact it's down the middle, at the belt. The batter swings and misses, but F2 can't handle the ball. The batter runs and makes it to 1B. The next batter, same pitch location, foul tips it to F2. The batter is out. Do you think that's penalizing the batter for hitting the ball?

[LMan]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Isn't that penalizing the batter for hitting the ball?

Since neither batter should be swinging at pitches in the dirt, I'd say the first batter got away with one.

[Uncle George]

According to the 2007 NFHS Baseball Rule book, Rule 2-16-2:

"A foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly to the catchers hands and is legally caught by any fielder. It shall be called a strike and the ball is in play."

SanDiegoSteve, help me out, in this situation it's a caught thrid strike foul tip, batter is out, thus the third out?

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Uncle George

According to the 2007 NFHS Baseball Rule book, Rule 2-16-2:

"A foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly to the catchers hands and is legally caught by any fielder. It shall be called a strike and the ball is in play."

SanDiegoSteve, help me out, in this situation it's a caught thrid strike foul tip, batter is out, thus the third out?

All those who said the answer is a foul tip are correct. More importantly I do not care what Roder, Evans, or any other person has to say unless he can back up his argument with a rules citation.

Tim C wanted rules citations and that is what matters most. There are several rules with pertinent information to getting the right interp.

NF 2-16-2: Foul tip (see above citation by Uncle George)

NF 2-6-1: Batted ball (thrown ball). A batted ball or thrown ball is in flight until it has touched the ground or some object other than a fielder.

NF 2-9-1: Catch: A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a live ball in flight and firmly holding it.

Answers: When pitcher throws ball in the dirt and batter with 2 strikes
swings and misses he may run to first. That is because a live thrown ball has touched the ground and therefore does not meet the definition a catch. It is an uncaught 3rd strike.

When pitcher throws the ball and it hits ground and then batter hits it, we now have a live batted ball in flight. If it is a line drive to 1B and caught in flight the batter is out. If it is a pop fly to RF (fair or foul) and caught in flight then the batter is out. It the ball goes from the bat directly to catchers hand and then caught in flight by any fielder the batter is out because this meets the definition of foul tip.

[UmpJM]

Daryl,

Thanks for the cogent exegesis.

Since we appear to be talking FED here, I was wondering if you could clear something up for me.

Let's say...

There's a runner on 1B (R1). As the pitcher commits to deliver, the R1 takes off for 2B.

The batter takes a mighty swing at the pitch and barely nicks it. The ball goes sharp and direct to the catcher's mitt and, as he is gaining secure control, the R1 (legally) slides into 2B, as the umpire calls "Foul!"

What do you do? ...

As,

A. The Plate Umpire
B. The Base Umpire
C. The Offensive Manager
D. The Defensive Manager

I'll admit this is kind of a trick question, because I didn't really say what role you were playing in this scenario. And what you would or might do could depend on who did what first.

Regardless, I would be interested in your answer.

JM

[David B]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Daryl,

Thanks for the cogent exegesis.

Since we appear to be talking FED here, I was wondering if you could clear something up for me.

Let's say...

There's a runner on 1B (R1). As the pitcher commits to deliver, the R1 takes off for 2B.

The batter takes a mighty swing at the pitch and barely nicks it. The ball goes sharp and direct to the catcher's mitt and, as he is gaining secure control, the R1 (legally) slides into 2B, as the umpire calls "Foul!"

What do you do? ...

As,

A. The Plate Umpire
B. The Base Umpire
C. The Offensive Manager
D. The Defensive Manager

I'll admit this is kind of a trick question, because I didn't really say what role you were playing in this scenario. And what you would or might do could depend on who did what first.

Regardless, I would be interested in your answer.

JM

Ah the tricky mind.

A. Lets see as PU - it won't happen

B. as BU - let PU make the decision - its his call. (probably throw out the assistant coach as head coach is arguing with PU)

C. The Offensive Manager - probably going to get thrown out for arguing a crazy rule.

D. The Defensive Manager - glad that' he's gotten away with the call.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by David B

A. Lets see as PU - it won't happen

What????

Originally Posted by David B

B. as BU - let PU make the decision - its his call. (probably throw out the assistant coach as head coach is arguing with PU)

Why did you toss the asst coach?

Originally Posted by David B

C. The Offensive Manager - probably going to get thrown out for arguing a crazy rule.

Which crazy rule?

Originally Posted by David B

D. The Defensive Manager - glad that' he's gotten away with the call.

What call did he get away with?

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Daryl,

Thanks for the cogent exegesis.

Since we appear to be talking FED here, I was wondering if you could clear something up for me.

Let's say...

There's a runner on 1B (R1). As the pitcher commits to deliver, the R1 takes off for 2B.

The batter takes a mighty swing at the pitch and barely nicks it. The ball goes sharp and direct to the catcher's mitt and, as he is gaining secure control, the R1 (legally) slides into 2B, as the umpire calls "Foul!"

What do you do? ...

As,

A. The Plate Umpire
B. The Base Umpire
C. The Offensive Manager
D. The Defensive Manager

I'll admit this is kind of a trick question, because I didn't really say what role you were playing in this scenario. And what you would or might do could depend on who did what first.

Regardless, I would be interested in your answer.

JM

First lets apply the proper rules as to what should happen.

2-16-1e Foul: A foul ball is a batted ball that touches the ground after being inadvertantly being declared foul by the umpire.

Therefore, by rule, since the ball never touched the ground even though the umpire declared it foul, the ball remains live and a strike is charged to the batter and R1 remains on 2B.

As PU: I know the rule so I will not do this. But if I inadvertantly said foul and then realized my error (either on my own or brought to my attention by partner or either coach) I would call time. I would bring both coaches together and admit my mistake and correct the situation by rule.

If it was my partner who called foul I would call time and confer with him alone. Depending on how experienced he was my words would be a gentle reminder of his role in the situation as BU or a rather silent scolding to keep his mouth shut. (Either way my body language and volume of my voice is such that I do not embarrass my partner. It will look like a normal conference). Then I would bring both coaches together and correct the play.

Apply the same if I was base umpire.

As for coaches, even if I had made a mistake I do not let coaches charge the mound or argue vociferously. I let them know at pregame they can come out and ask and I will listen to them. It has worked for 25 years with only 2 ejections.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

First lets apply the proper rules as to what should happen.

2-16-1e Foul: A foul ball is a batted ball that touches the ground after being inadvertantly being declared foul by the umpire.

Therefore, by rule, since the ball never touched the ground even though the umpire declared it foul, the ball remains live and a strike is charged to the batter and R1 remains on 2B.

As PU: I know the rule so I will not do this. But if I inadvertantly said foul and then realized my error (either on my own or brought to my attention by partner or either coach) I would call time. I would bring both coaches together and admit my mistake and correct the situation by rule.

If it was my partner who called foul I would call time and confer with him alone. Depending on how experienced he was my words would be a gentle reminder of his role in the situation as BU or a rather silent scolding to keep his mouth shut. (Either way my body language and volume of my voice is such that I do not embarrass my partner. It will look like a normal conference). Then I would bring both coaches together and correct the play.

Apply the same if I was base umpire.

The only FED case book example that comes close to this situation is:

2.16.1 Situation A (Page 16): On a count of 1-ball, 2-strikes, B1 hits a fly ball down the right-field line. While the ball is in the air, the umpire inadvertently declares "foul ball'; (a) F9 catches the ball in flight, (b) the ball falls on the ground in fair territory, (c) the ball falls to the ground in foul territory.
RULING: (a) the batter is out and the ball remains live, (b) and (c) the ball is immediately dead as soon as it touches the ground; the batter returns to bat with a count of 1-2.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

First lets apply the proper rules as to what should happen.

2-16-1e Foul: A foul ball is a batted ball that touches the ground after being inadvertantly being declared foul by the umpire.

Therefore, by rule, since the ball never touched the ground even though the umpire declared it foul, the ball remains live and a strike is charged to the batter and R1 remains on 2B.

As PU: I know the rule so I will not do this. But if I inadvertantly said foul and then realized my error (either on my own or brought to my attention by partner or either coach) I would call time. I would bring both coaches together and admit my mistake and correct the situation by rule.

If it was my partner who called foul I would call time and confer with him alone. Depending on how experienced he was my words would be a gentle reminder of his role in the situation as BU or a rather silent scolding to keep his mouth shut. (Either way my body language and volume of my voice is such that I do not embarrass my partner. It will look like a normal conference). Then I would bring both coaches together and correct the play.

Apply the same if I was base umpire.

As for coaches, even if I had made a mistake I do not let coaches charge the mound or argue vociferously. I let them know at pregame they can come out and ask and I will listen to them. It has worked for 25 years with only 2 ejections.

Daryl,

Once again, a thoughtful and thorough answer. Though I've never seen you work a game, I am inclined to believe that you would not commit this faux pas.

I came to the same conclusion you did regarding what the proper application of the rules would be in the situation I posed. My ulterior motive in posing it was to question whether the FED rulesmakers had considered this particular implication of their "correction" of 2005's rather absurd interpretation that stated that a batted ball which was legally caught was made foul and dead solely by virtue of an umpire (erroneously) calling it foul.

Now, in my experience, the notion that a foul tip remains live and in play (and that runners need not return or retouch) is a concept that remains elusive to many coaches, players, and even a few umpires. In my experience, it is also a significantly more common occurrence (not that it happens a lot, but it does happen) for an umpire to incorrectly declare a foul tip "Foul" than it is for an umpire to incorrectly call an in-flight batted ball near the line "Foul".

So, I wonder if the "unintended consequences" of this clarification will end up producing more unpleasant situations than it will prevent.

On another note, while Tim C. can be terse, cryptic, antagonistic, and arrogant in his posts, I believe he knows what he is talking about and generally find reading his posts (as well as his articles) to be worth my while.

Oh, and he doesn't seem to be especially receptive to constructive criticism offered in this forum either.

Some things we can change, some things we can't. Not recognizing the distinction can result in a lot of wasted time. Is your pig an alto or a soprano?

JM

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

All those who said the answer is a foul tip are correct. More importantly I do not care what Roder, Evans, or any other person has to say unless he can back up his argument with a rules citation.

Tim C wanted rules citations and that is what matters most. There are several rules with pertinent information to getting the right interp.

NF 2-16-2: Foul tip (see above citation by Uncle George)

NF 2-6-1: Batted ball (thrown ball). A batted ball or thrown ball is in flight until it has touched the ground or some object other than a fielder.

NF 2-9-1: Catch: A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a live ball in flight and firmly holding it.

Answers: When pitcher throws ball in the dirt and batter with 2 strikes
swings and misses he may run to first. That is because a live thrown ball has touched the ground and therefore does not meet the definition a catch. It is an uncaught 3rd strike.

When pitcher throws the ball and it hits ground and then batter hits it, we now have a live batted ball in flight. If it is a line drive to 1B and caught in flight the batter is out. If it is a pop fly to RF (fair or foul) and caught in flight then the batter is out. It the ball goes from the bat directly to catchers hand and then caught in flight by any fielder the batter is out because this meets the definition of foul tip.

I think you misinterpreted Tim's post. He had the correct answer. His reference to a rules citation was in regards to the ability of anyone having one that would disprove his answer, not confirm it.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I think you misinterpreted Tim's post. He had the correct answer. His reference to a rules citation was in regards to the ability of anyone having one that would disprove his answer, not confirm it.

I did not misinterpret anything.

Tim absolutely had the right answer.

But, why is it OK for Tim (or anyone else posting on this board including me) to challenge anyone to cite a rule reference to disprove his answer when he did not cite a rule to confirm his own answer?

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Tim C

As I have stated for the last 10 years on umpire websites:

I do not do "citations".

The "agressive" style of my post was in answer to the INCORRECT answer that appeared just before mine.

There are two things I no longer do on message boards:

1) Cite specific rulings and,

2) Start new threads.

Regards,

You do not start new threads because you have been taken to task for deleting the thread when there are those that disagree with you.

If you do not know how to find specific rulings to cite in you rules interps them let me know and I will ty to find someone to teach you how to do so.

For an umpire to be so arrogant that he thinks he is GOD and everyone should accept his interpretation based on who he is, the level of ball he umps, or the number of years of experience he has is unconscionable.

My only wish is there were three things you would no longer do on message boards. Please add the following to your list:

3. I will no longer post on message boards. GOODBYE.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

All those who said the answer is a foul tip are correct. More importantly I do not care what Roder, Evans, or any other person has to say unless he can back up his argument with a rules citation.

You are not going to be able to back every single argument with a rules citation. there is also something called "custom and usage"

Example: The batter swings and hits a dribler. Just as he vacates the box the ball hits him. The actual rule would say to call the batter out but custom and usuage tell us otherwise. Generally speaking when a batter gets hit with the ball right around the plate area it's a FOUL ball regardless of what the rule actually states. if the batter has already taken several steps and then gets hit it's a different story.

the "neighborhood play" is also a PRIME example on custom and usage. Even though F4/F6 didn't actually Touch the bag on a play where R1 is out by a good margin. As long as they are in the 'vicinity" they will get what is called the "neigborhood play"

In addition there are many errors in the OBR rule-book. Evans / Roder clean those up for us. Also, for you to say you do not care what Evans / Roder say will not help one in administering and understanding the rules.

Here's another PRIME example as to why Rick / Evans are important.

Appeal Plays. In order to fully understand appeal plays one has to understand what is meant by the terms "Relaxed" vs. "Unrelaxed" action. You will not find those terms in the rule book but they are extremely important when it comes to certain types of appeals meaning Do we have to simply tag the base or do we have to tag the player.

There is a rule book and then there are case plays. OBR doesn't have a case Book ala FED/NCAA but there are supplemental materials such as the PBUC handbook, Rick's Book, Papa C's BRD and Evans which is next to impossible to get. These materials have case plays which explain the rules.

Bottom Line: You can't always take the rules Verbatum. Even if the rules are re-written there will still be questions. It's the nature of baseball.

Pete Booth