Return and retouch after ball dead

[mikebran]

Disclaimer: Yes it is possible that this question in this exact form has been answered "correctly" sometime in the last 5 years. If so, I forgot.

Situation (even normal)

R1. No outs. Fly ball to Right-Center. R1 was off on the swing. Touches second base and is half way to third when Center fielder CATCHES FLY BALL and throws back to 1st, attempting to double up R1. This throw is wild and high and goes into DBT.

At time that ball became dead (out of play) the runner had started his retreat but had not touched 2nd, yet. Umpire calls time, announces YOU third base.

Runner, knowing what he must do, continues his retreat.. touches 2nd... touches 1st... then forward, touches 2nd, goes to third.

When ball is made LIVE defense makes appeal at 1st (or just tags runner standing on third).. and appeals leaving early (under rule 7.10 a b app ruling 2)

Is this runner out on this appeal, or was he entitled to retrace as he did?

This question is about the intepretation of App ruling 2 aftger 7.10 a and b. It makes me nutty that JEA doesn't use THIS example but rather one LIKE this but runner misses 2nd while retracing.

I have thought/remember being told.. that the touching after the missed or "left early base" (these are synomyous in this rule) must occur AFTER the ball is dead, to be appealable. Thus in my example.. I think the runner is hunky dory LEGAL.. as he had touched 2nd while ball was live. (first time).

IF IN EXAMPLE this runner had continued to run (remember his is between 2nd and 3rd when ball goes into DBT).. and went ahead and touched THIRD. THEN he did the retrace and the advance.. he would be out an a proper appeal as 7.10 (and stuff) does NOT allow him to legally go back and retouch 1st.

I am fully prepared to hear that this runner is out on appeal in BOTH cases however.

[DG]

Originally Posted by mikebran

R1. No outs. Fly ball to Right-Center. R1 was off on the swing. Touches second base and is half way to third when Center fielder CATCHES FLY BALL and throws back to 1st, attempting to double up R1. This throw is wild and high and goes into DBT.

At time that ball became dead (out of play) the runner had started his retreat but had not touched 2nd, yet. Umpire calls time, announces YOU third base.

Runner, knowing what he must do, continues his retreat.. touches 2nd... touches 1st... then forward, touches 2nd, goes to third.

IF IN EXAMPLE this runner had continued to run (remember his is between 2nd and 3rd when ball goes into DBT).. and went ahead and touched THIRD. THEN he did the retrace and the advance.. he would be out an a proper appeal as 7.10 (and stuff) does NOT allow him to legally go back and retouch 1st.

This play is covered in J/R page 71, 2004 edition, except it was F9 who caught the ball in the example. Legal to retouch 2B and 1B and then 2B again and end up on 3B, unless he had touched 3B after the ball went dead.

[UmpJM]

mikebran,

DG has given you the correct answer - for OBR.

Oddly enough, under FED rules, in the original situation you describe (i.e., the runner is beyond his advance base at the time the ball becomes dead) the runner who left early would be declared out on execution of a properly constituted appeal by the defense.

JM

[DG]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

mikebran,

DG has given you the correct answer - for OBR.

Oddly enough, under FED rules, in the original situation you describe (i.e., the runner is beyond his advance base at the time the ball becomes dead) the runner who left early would be declared out on execution of a properly constituted appeal by the defense.

JM

Since he reference 7.10 I assumed he was looking for an OBR answer.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by DG

Since he reference 7.10 I assumed he was looking for an OBR answer.

Don,

I expect you are correct & didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

I was just trying to point out the difference in the FED ruling on this situation as a point of information.

JM

[PFISTO]

5-2-2-b1 says:
When a ball becomes dead.
A runner who is on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball becomes dead, or advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball became dead, may not return and shall be called out upon a proper and successfull appeal (8-4-2a)

[mcrowder]

Two bases from where the runner is when the throw begins... shouldn't the award be home on this play?

[tibear]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Two bases from where the runner is when the throw begins... shouldn't the award be home on this play?

The ball was caught by CF so the runner must return to TOP base before attempting any advance. It doesn't matter where the runner is when the throw is made if he has to return to his TOP base. Simply use the TOP base in this instance.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Two bases from where the runner is when the throw begins... shouldn't the award be home on this play?

No. When a runner leaves a base too son on a caught fly, the award is from the original base.

[UmpJM]

mcrowder,

FED (From 8-3-5):

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch.

OBR (From MLBUM):

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base-see Section 5.11), and the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook Comments following Official Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)

JM

[mcrowder]

I stand corrected. Softball on the brain, I guess.

[PeteBooth]

Oddly enough, under FED rules, in the original situation you describe (i.e., the runner is beyond his advance base at the time the ball becomes dead) the runner who left early would be declared out on execution of a properly constituted appeal by the defense.

JM

[/QUOTE]

Unless in the umpires judgement the fielder Deliberately threw the ball into DBT to prevent the runner from correcting his base running error.

Pete Booth

[DG]

Unless in the umpires judgement the fielder Deliberately threw the ball into DBT to prevent the runner from correcting his base running error.

Pete Booth[/QUOTE]Seems reasonable, but is this covered by case book, or is this 10-3g?

[UmpJM]

DG,

It's actually in the text of the rules. From 8-3-3d (towards the end):

A runner shall not be declared out if the fielder deliberately throws or carries the ball into dead ball territory to prevent that runner who has touched or advanced beyond a succeeding base from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon.

JM

[DG]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

DG,
It's actually in the text of the rules. From 8-3-3d (towards the end):
JM

Thanks. I was looking under 8-2.