Can "FOUL" be made "FAIR"?

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Uncle George

It's the PU call to the bag, past the bag it the BU calls. In this case, if ball it's bag, PU as call.

Actually, with BU in position C, as was stated in the OP, PU has ALL fair/foul responsibility. So in my opinion, it's the PU that should be upset with his partner, not the other way around.

As far as changing the call on the field, in the 2-man system, this is PU's call. He must have seen the ball become foul. Otherwise, why in the world would he declair a ball that is resting in center field foul? I admit that this would be a tough sell, but he must have seen it become foul.

As far as the TD becoming involved with this play.... not on my watch. That would defintely be the last time I work a game in a tournament being run by him.

[Rich Ives]

"He must have seen the ball become foul"

Play description: "BR hits a shot down the 3rd baseline, hits the bag . ."


Hitting the bag makes it fair - period. PU must have really bad vision or needs a rules refresher.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

"He must have seen the ball become foul"

Play description: "BR hits a shot down the 3rd baseline, hits the bag . ."


Hitting the bag makes it fair - period. PU must have really bad vision or needs a rules refresher.

I guess I didn't make my point correctly. I was inferring that it's possible PU saw foul and the coach and PAT may be mistaken in thinking it hit the bag.

I agree that if it did in fact hit the bag, it's fair- period.

[mcrowder]

I see that several here have completely missed the point.

Yeah, this is PU's call. But PU's ego doesn't put him in position to make an incorrect ruling. And while TD probably handled this poorly, the TD certainly does have a responsibility to fixing PROTESTABLE situations.

The only way TD's actions are correct is if the coach protested (which is possible, although also handled wrong), AND the PU said he saw the ball hit the bag first and that was his reason for ruling it foul (thus making the whole thing a protestable rules misinterpretation, and not a judgement call).

If I was BU in a sitch like this, when PU yelled, "FOUL", I'd have approached him, away from coaches, and asked him what he saw. If it was even remotely a judgement thing (which would have to include him not seeing the ball hit the bag), play on - foul ball, and start herding the inevitable assitants away from PU while the head coach goes ballistic on him. However, if PU admits seeing the ball hit the bag, I'd remind him that by definition that makes it fair, and WE (meaning he) had an obligation to fix the situation. Then let HIM reverse the call and deal with the OTHER manager.

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Hitting the bag makes it fair - period.

Not always true. The ball may have hit something (such as a fielder) in foul territory before it hit the bag, that may be the reason for the strange bounce and the ball ending up in center field. Just because it hit the bag, it is not a fair ball - period. It appears from the OP that someone may have screwed the pooch on this one, but I was not there, and I don't think you were either, so don't throw out blanket statements. My issue is with the BU apparently calling a ball fair from the C position. If the PU kicked it, you gotta live with it, bring the BR back, runners return, and circle the wagons....someone is headed to the bus.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BigTex

Not always true. The ball may have hit something (such as a fielder) in foul territory before it hit the bag, that may be the reason for the strange bounce and the ball ending up in center field. Just because it hit the bag, it is not a fair ball - period. It appears from the OP that someone may have screwed the pooch on this one, but I was not there, and I don't think you were either, so don't throw out blanket statements. My issue is with the BU apparently calling a ball fair from the C position. If the PU kicked it, you gotta live with it, bring the BR back, runners return, and circle the wagons....someone is headed to the bus.

The description was "hit a shot - hit the bag". I really think if the ball hit someone in foul territory the original poster wouldn't have even posted the question.

[LMan]

This is a protestable situation, as the call is not judgement, its a rule. Ball hits bag = fair.

Why is BU pointing? Its not his call, if that's what he's doing. PU should be pointing 'fair'.

RE: This 'blanket statement' stuff....give us a break. We can only go with what the OP said....if he said, 'hits shot, ball hits bag' then you gotta assume it went straight to the bag, so its fair. This 'oh, but I can think up 15,000 other situations the OP never mentioned where it wouldn't be xxxxx' is ridiculous.

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by LMan

RE: This 'blanket statement' stuff....give us a break. We can only go with what the OP said....if he said, 'hits shot, ball hits bag' then you gotta assume it went straight to the bag, so its fair. This 'oh, but I can think up 15,000 other situations the OP never mentioned where it wouldn't be xxxxx' is ridiculous.

The OP also didn't tell us that:

I did not want to get into this but… let me describe him to you... the pu wore a backwards cap, wore an inside protector – outside and kakis shorts.

I was just trying to point out that we may not have all the information when we start to throw other umpires under the bus. Now that we have more information, maybe the plate guy should have started out under the bus.

[RPatrino]

I think someone mentioned this already, per rule if a batted ball hits a base it's fair. In my opinion, thats one 'foul' that can be reversed. The fact that PU didn't allow that is a different topic. The TD, while well intentioned, has no business reversing any call, or placing runners.

In this situation, the BU making a fair/foul call does not apply. Why bring it up at all?

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by BigTex

The OP also didn't tell us that:

I did not want to get into this but… let me describe him to you... the pu wore a backwards cap, wore an inside protector – outside and kakis shorts.

I was just trying to point out that we may not have all the information when we start to throw other umpires under the bus. Now that we have more information, maybe the plate guy should have started out under the bus.

It seems to me that while PU may not have actually been under the bus, his head MAY have been up the gas pipe.......

[Justme]

Originally Posted by BigTex

Not always true. The ball may have hit something (such as a fielder) in foul territory before it hit the bag, that may be the reason for the strange bounce and the ball ending up in center field. Just because it hit the bag, it is not a fair ball - period. It appears from the OP that someone may have screwed the pooch on this one, but I was not there, and I don't think you were either, so don't throw out blanket statements. My issue is with the BU apparently calling a ball fair from the C position. If the PU kicked it, you gotta live with it, bring the BR back, runners return, and circle the wagons....someone is headed to the bus.

What???? Read the original post again....... If the ball, unobstructed by any fielder in foul territory (what was the fielder doing standing in foul territory?), hits the base (as described in the OP) then it's fair.....period! Spread out the blanket.

Unless an alien abducted the ball, dropped it in on the base and it then rolled into center field. In this situation Rule 13-1-1 clearly states that this is a "do over".